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14th February 2009, 11:32 AM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
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Quote:
Yes indeed, a very interesting topic to say the least!  While Googling for colada and tizona, I found this Wikipedia article on the List of magical weapons, which is mainly about swords. Here's an excerpt, and I highlighted the subject swords for easier browsing: I don't know whether it's fair to put the historical colada and tizona in the above quoted list, as most of the blades there are fictitious. Anyways, I just thought I'd throw in the above list for whatever it's worth!
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14th February 2009, 04:12 PM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,599
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Yikes, Lorenz!!
Now thats compehensive, Thank you for adding this list, and it does show the mythical weapons of literary classics and legend...and as you note, many, if not most are in some degree either fictitious or contained in illustrious descriptive metaphor. With a number of these weapons, they actually existed, however they have been embellished or metaphorically described in so much literature that often conflicts with another, that in cases where these swords are supposed to still exist, there are unsurprisingly disputed perspectives on their authenticity. Heroic figures such as El Cid, Charlemagne, Joan of Arc and so many others of course used swords, but they have reached such lofty stature in legend, it almost seems that to hold a sword said to have belonged to any one of them would seem almost disappointing, as a mere mortal object. This is my own perception at least, though in my mind I choose to imagine what these swords were like. I recall once researching a sword said to have been used by a heroic Scottish figure during the time of the English civil wars, who was said to have had a huge sword with a ten pound sliding weight on a rod on the blade, there to add force to the deadly cut. A writer was doing research for a period novel and wanted to add as much authenticity as possible, always admirable. It was incredibly fascinating and I found most of the events and locations associated with the individual factual, however in varying degree embellished. For example a castle was actually a rather large home or estate, and as always, the battles were of course not like the movies. The 'ten pound' weight was naturally impossible, and the first sign of improbability, for even in the unlikely case he was actually using a true claymore..the huge two hand sword, such a weight would make use of one of these uncontrollable....especially sliding up and down the blade! The term 'claymore' as noted, typically describes these huge two hand swords used during medieval times, but had mostly fallen out of use in Scotland by the 17th century, naturally with known exceptions. Many of these huge blades did end up in the developing basket hilt form, made famous in Scotland, cut down from these heirloom two hand swords. In yet another case of the semantics and misinterpretations with the study of weapons, the term 'claymore' became popularly applied to the single hand basket hilts. Pehaps this was due to the known use in so many cases of 'claymore' blades, but whatever the case, in understanding contemporary literature and narratives, the conflicting terms can be confounding. I never found any evidence of any sword with such a sliding weight on the blade, despite obviously the well known sliding bearings in open channels in the blades of 'tears of the wounded' swords of China, India and Persia. These were primarily ceremonial or parade type swords, with the sound of the moving bearings more thier purpose than any weight or force transfer. I also found another mythical reference to such a blade with moving weight however, in a romanticized book about the famed Bowie knife, and of course regarded the context accordingly. The sword attributed to the Scottish hero was eventually discovered, and honestly it was disappointing when there was no sliding weight, nor was it the huge claymore I imagined. Somehow, the stature of the hero himself to me was never compromised, and I realized that such a feature really was never needed, as the achievements of the man himself was the power and force. Perhaps even as mere mortals, we all have such power and force within ourselves in our own ways. I'd like to think so... All best regards, Jim |
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14th February 2009, 06:19 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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Swords such as Tizona and Colada have 'power' as political 'status' symbols. Later leaders may use such an 'icon' to 'rally' its people to a cause.
Holy relics (in Europe) were often faked, but the masses, unaware would travel 'hundreds of miles' on pilgrimages to view them. This gave the owners power, prestige and often , an income  .Hitler, himself, ordered the search for the 'spear of destiny', the spear alleged to have pierced Christ's side during the crucifixion. He realised, the political power and status he would gain by it's possession . In fact 'the' spear was recently denounced as a medieval fake .... During the Crusades there is a story where they were heavily outnumbered and their morale low. A monk allegedly had a vision that the "holy lance" would aid them. " .....Meanwhile in Antioch, on June 10 an otherwise poor and insignificant monk by the name of Peter Bartholomew came forward claiming to have had visions of St. Andrew, who told him that the Holy Lance was inside the city. The starving crusaders were prone to visions and hallucinations, and another monk named Stephen of Valence reported visions of Christ and the Virgin Mary. On June 14 a meteor was seen landing in the enemy camp, interpreted as a good omen. Although Adhemar was suspicious, as he had seen a relic of the Holy Lance in Constantinople, Raymond believed Peter. Raymond, Raymond of Aguilers, William, Bishop of Orange, and others began to dig in the cathedral of St. Peter on June 15, and when they came up empty, Peter went into the pit, reached down, and produced a spear point. Raymond took this as a divine sign that they would survive and thus prepared for a final fight rather than surrender. Peter then reported another vision, in which St. Andrew instructed the crusader army to fast for five days (although they were already starving), after which they would be victorious. Bohemund was sceptical of the Holy Lance as well, but there is no question that its discovery increased the morale of the crusaders. It is also possible that Peter was reporting what Bohemund wanted, rather than what St. Andrew wanted, as Bohemund knew, from spies in Kerbogha's camp, that the various factions frequently argued with each other, and they would probably not work together as a cohesive unit in battle......" http://www.stnicholas-billings.org/H...ochcapture.htm It would seem likely, that these two swords have been replaced with impostors ..which would have been staunchly 'defended' as being the originals ...by those whom had possession of them ...to achieve their political agenda.. much like the 'holy relics'...... In my opinion, the web of lies and deceit created would make research incredibly difficult as later generations continued to believe their truth. Interesting thread  Regards David |
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14th February 2009, 10:17 PM
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#4 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,599
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Outstanding history David ! and its great to look further into so much of this that is connected to the weapons that took part in it. This is exactly what I believe the study of weapons and thier development and history is about.
It is true that the weapons attributed to key historic and heroic figures are indeed important icons that carry tremendous power in promoting national pride and often patriotic fervor. The 'Spear of Longinus' is another great example of this concept of power symbolized by a weapon as an icon. Actually, though there is a great deal of PR work that seems to have been involved with many weapons of such legendary stature, but I often wonder if there is not a degree of actuality in many cases. The weapons on display in museums of course are often restored or at least receive maintainance for thier preservation. I am not sure on the Tizona or Colada swords, but in the case of the Boabdil sword which has elaborate mounts that may be end of 15th century, but also may be early 16th. Some references claim the blade is probably Berber, yet note it appears pattern welded. As always, I disclaim any great understanding of metallurgy, but whatever the case is with the blade, the fact that it seems to have been remounted with a more elaborate hilt to better represent the stature of this extremely important and heroic figure. It would seem quite possible that the blades on these weapons might have been from the period claimed, and remounted in accord with more current fashion in a well meant show of respect. This is as least the concept I believe most commonly held with weapons held in high esteem in many cultures, and I know that many weapons were remounted many times in thier working lives. There were apparantly tests on the blade of the Tizona sword, but it seems unclear on the actual outcome. On one hand it is claimed the blade is 11th century, and the other the same 15th-16th century attribution that seems to correspond to the Boabdil sword and Colada. Whether there is intentional deception involved, or simply stubborn refusal to let go of what is believed without regard for scientific or scholarly analysis is hard to say. It would be good to see some serious study in examining all of these swords, and if anyone is aware of any such case, I hope they will let us know here. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th February 2009 at 01:32 AM. |
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16th February 2009, 09:17 PM
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#5 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
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Quote:
Thanks for the comments. I guess all I can say is that if historical swords have joined the ranks of mythical and "magical" swords, then those real swords must really be that good whatever "good" means. And the other thing that this veil of mystery does is that it continually feeds the legend, which then of course perpetuates the stories even more. I guess a sword couldn't ask for more! Quote:
Thanks for your post. And expanding the discussion to include historical similarities surely puts the subject swords in better perspective. Isn't it interesting that the deceased El Cid was used as a rallying point then, and his swords continue to be used as such apparently? So for political propagandists (for lack of a better word), to them I guess it's not important whether the thing is true or not. Interesting thread indeed ... PS - On the power of belief and as an aside, as Neo (The Matrix) said "There is no spoon." 
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