What sort of steel is this please? (Indian blade)

Philip · 1st February 2009, 02:59 AM

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges.

The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.

spiral · 4th February 2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. .

Thats interesting Phillip, Ive only etched about 10 laminated kukris { All from my own collection.} But 2 exhibit clear Tibetan hairpin style of forging.

So I guess it just depends on which kukis you happend to etch. There a lot of individualty amongst them even in the steel types & patterns.

I admired your skill on your work for JP.

That fir tree kukri had a wonderfull pattern indeed!

Spiral

Atlantia · 4th February 2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges.

The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.

Hi Philip

I'd like to see other examples of similar steel techniques from that area! Have you still got any pictures of the knives you worked on?

Do you think with mine I would get clearer results if I did a light repolish and used ferric chloride?

Spiral.
Any thoughts on this knife?

Regards
Gene

spiral · 4th February 2009, 10:04 PM

Hi Gene, Well it looks 20th century to me, either India or Nepal, Its nice & I wonder if its been made out of an older piece of reclaimed steel perhaps?

I have seen a similar pattern steel in a Sikh Kirpan but never truly deduced what it was. I think shear steel is quite likely though.

I know its a nice & interesting piece you have there.

Spiral

Atlantia · 5th February 2009, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Hi Gene, Well it looks 20th century to me, either India or Nepal, Its nice & I wonder if its been made out of an older piece of reclaimed steel perhaps?

I have seen a similar pattern steel in a Sikh Kirpan but never truly deduced what it was. I think shear steel is quite likely though.

I know its a nice & interesting piece you have there.

Spiral

Hi Spiral,
Thanks for replying.

If you come across any pics of have any further thoughs

Cheers
Gene

Philip · 5th February 2009, 06:10 AM

Spiral: Thanks for sharing your experience with polishing "kooks", I've learned some new things about hairpin welding on some of these, thanks to you. Do you mind sharing pics of one of yours with this type of lamination?

Gene: Sadly I didn't take pics of either of the two spectacular kukris I polished for JP, but he, being an expert photog, did and I believe that he posted them on this forum. This being back in 2003-04 sometime (? memory is hazy) you might need to search the archived threads.

Yes, if you polished your knife to a finer surface and carefully etched with ferric chloride, it's possible to get the pattern to pop out more distinctly if the steels in the layers have enough differentiation in terms of alloying or carbon content. Sometimes the stuff can be stubborn and a slow, controlled oxydation process is necessary to get the contrast.

Sorry, I can't tell you much about the style of your knife other than the blade design looks quite Western-influenced and doesn't appear to be traditional to the area. Perhaps another forum member can shed light on blades of similar type.

spiral · 5th February 2009, 09:56 AM

Will do Gene.

Certanly Phillip, This ones a bit of an anomoly to me. Its a Chainpuri or Limbu villager style kukri but with Tibetan style folding.

So after a quick hefting & glancing at the blade in sunlight I decided to do a quick & dirty 10 second bathroom bleach spray, a 5 second wipe of lemon juice & a quick rinse rinse in hot water just to see what i had & it revealed this rather course but lovely blade.

I am sure the white metal handle { probably cast zinc from old battery cases & toothpaste tubes! } & the steel bolster are replacments, . Clearly this was a well used kukri at some time in its past, the spine has been well beaten for splitting firewood but luckily someone still liked it enough a few decades ago to re handle it so its life could continue.

I am rather left wondering the age of the blade... Any idea when the Tibetans {&/or Nepalis} stoped doing this style of lamination?

The other one is more traditional in style & much larger, but I need to work on it it again for photos as I originaly only brought up the pattern with lemon juice or vinigar & its very faint .

Philip · 6th February 2009, 02:17 AM

Interesting blade! It actually has a double hairpin, it's on both ends. Do you have a copy of the Met's exhibition catalog "Warriors of the Himalayas" (2006)? There's one Tibetan long backsword (dpa dam) in there with the same type of two-ended hairpin (albeit with finer layering).

As far as I know, the Tibetans and Bhutanese kept doing hairpin well into the 20th cent. JP used to say that the Nepalese tended to drop the use of patternwelds for kooks sometime in the 19th cent, when carriage springs, rail steel, and crucible steel recycled from ag implements became widely available -- high quality material, and easy to forge and harden.

Say, has anyone heard from JP recently? 'Hope he's back to health.

Philip

6th February 2009, 02:17 AM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	thanx for the pics! Interesting blade! It actually has a double hairpin, it's on both ends. Do you have a copy of the Met's exhibition catalog "Warriors of the Himalayas" (2006)? There's one Tibetan long backsword (dpa dam) in there with the same type of two-ended hairpin (albeit with finer layering). As far as I know, the Tibetans and Bhutanese kept doing hairpin well into the 20th cent. JP used to say that the Nepalese tended to drop the use of patternwelds for kooks sometime in the 19th cent, when carriage springs, rail steel, and crucible steel recycled from ag implements became widely available -- high quality material, and easy to forge and harden. Say, has anyone heard from JP recently? 'Hope he's back to health. Philip

1st February 2009, 02:59 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges. The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.

4th February 2009, 10:04 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hi Gene, Well it looks 20th century to me, either India or Nepal, Its nice & I wonder if its been made out of an older piece of reclaimed steel perhaps? I have seen a similar pattern steel in a Sikh Kirpan but never truly deduced what it was. I think shear steel is quite likely though. I know its a nice & interesting piece you have there. Spiral

5th February 2009, 06:10 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Spiral: Thanks for sharing your experience with polishing "kooks", I've learned some new things about hairpin welding on some of these, thanks to you. Do you mind sharing pics of one of yours with this type of lamination? Gene: Sadly I didn't take pics of either of the two spectacular kukris I polished for JP, but he, being an expert photog, did and I believe that he posted them on this forum. This being back in 2003-04 sometime (? memory is hazy) you might need to search the archived threads. Yes, if you polished your knife to a finer surface and carefully etched with ferric chloride, it's possible to get the pattern to pop out more distinctly if the steels in the layers have enough differentiation in terms of alloying or carbon content. Sometimes the stuff can be stubborn and a slow, controlled oxydation process is necessary to get the contrast. Sorry, I can't tell you much about the style of your knife other than the blade design looks quite Western-influenced and doesn't appear to be traditional to the area. Perhaps another forum member can shed light on blades of similar type.

5th February 2009, 09:56 AM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Will do Gene. Certanly Phillip, This ones a bit of an anomoly to me. Its a Chainpuri or Limbu villager style kukri but with Tibetan style folding. So after a quick hefting & glancing at the blade in sunlight I decided to do a quick & dirty 10 second bathroom bleach spray, a 5 second wipe of lemon juice & a quick rinse rinse in hot water just to see what i had & it revealed this rather course but lovely blade. I am sure the white metal handle { probably cast zinc from old battery cases & toothpaste tubes! } & the steel bolster are replacments, . Clearly this was a well used kukri at some time in its past, the spine has been well beaten for splitting firewood but luckily someone still liked it enough a few decades ago to re handle it so its life could continue. I am rather left wondering the age of the blade... Any idea when the Tibetans {&/or Nepalis} stoped doing this style of lamination? The other one is more traditional in style & much larger, but I need to work on it it again for photos as I originaly only brought up the pattern with lemon juice or vinigar & its very faint .