What sort of steel is this please? (Indian blade)

Atlantia · 28th January 2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The blade does appear to be wootz but the pattern is a sham style and not the typical tight, crystalline damask found on many Indian blades.

Hi RSWORD,

Thanks for the reply.
I thought it looked like wootz but I couldn't identify the pattern or why it was so 'flowing' and even (if that makes any sense?) and began to wonder if I was just being hopeful.

Edit:
AH! 'sham' refers to the flowing semi straight pattern without any swirls etc!
Yes, I looked through some old threads!

Regards
Gene

Philip · 29th January 2009, 07:23 AM

I tend to think that the surface patterning is due to layering, and as such it would be a form of pattern-weld. The effect, which reminds me of pamor or hada, appears to be too continuous to be the crystalline dendrites which are the characteristic of wootz. The eye can follow the lines in the pattern for a distance, whereas the visual impression given by wootz tends to be like flowing water: there is a current but the individual ripples aren't contiguous. Furthermore, in the two pics I see what look like pockets of black carbon which are oriented along the undulating lines. These look like the cold-shuts resulting from imperfect welds which sometimes occur in the production of a pattern-welded or folded-steel lamellar blade.

Atlantia · 29th January 2009, 12:55 PM

HI Phillip,

Thanks for coming in on this.
I had a quick look for 'sham wootz' online last night and noticed some similar discussions about if 'sham' should really even be described as wootz, is that what we're seeing here, or do you think this shouldn't be categorised as sham and is 'just' a finely layered/folded steel?

Regards
Gene

ALEX · 29th January 2009, 07:52 PM

I agree with RSWORD. This is typical sham pattern. Some still debate sham's attribution to wootz, but it has not been officially declared as non-wootz. The inferiority of sham comparing to other more prominent patterns is another topic, but generally speaking - sham wootz is still wootz

Philip · 29th January 2009, 07:59 PM

Gene,
Based on everything I've seen of "sham", it' wootz. As you probably well know, the name "sham" in this case is a Near Eastern term, it doesn't mean "false" or "faux" as we would use it in English.

Even if your blade is not wootz, it shouldn't be a cause of disappointment! There's nothing wrong with pattern welding, layering, lamination, and all that; as we all know a number of cultures East and West did some remarkable things with it and the craft is pursued at a high level even today. Wootz is indeed a marvellous thing (when it's done right, and frankly said there's more indifferent to bad stuff out there than there is the really excellent), but we should not elevate it to the status of a sacred cow. Even in this, the Year of the Ox!

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 06:50 PM

Alex and Philip,

Thankyou for continuing this discussion.

I think I should add a picture of the entire piece, so that you can see why I was suprised to notice the layering.

I've had this knife for a long long time and have only recently 're-found' it.
I asked a question about its identity a while ago and was pleased to find out that these Indian/Nepalese hunting type knives do have a following.
I did not however expect that the balde would be anything other than plain steel.

Imagine my suprise?

Philip.
Absolutely, I'm happy whatever it is. I am just happy its not a land-rover leaf spring!

I am still smiling at the unexpected bonus of having this interesting new aspect to something I'd taken for granted for so many years.

Gene

P.S.some decent daylight here would be nice to get some better pictures!

Bloody overcast days.

Atlantia · 31st January 2009, 09:00 PM

I'm really suprised this hasn't engendered more discussion.

Philip · 31st January 2009, 09:51 PM

I forwarded this discussion page to smith Ric Furrer, who lives in Wisconsin and is one of the few in his trade to have mastered the art of making wootz, and he also thinks tthat this blade is something else. Hopefully he'll be posting on this thread soon with an explanation.

29th January 2009, 07:59 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	sham is a type of wootz Gene, Based on everything I've seen of "sham", it' wootz. As you probably well know, the name "sham" in this case is a Near Eastern term, it doesn't mean "false" or "faux" as we would use it in English. Even if your blade is not wootz, it shouldn't be a cause of disappointment! There's nothing wrong with pattern welding, layering, lamination, and all that; as we all know a number of cultures East and West did some remarkable things with it and the craft is pursued at a high level even today. Wootz is indeed a marvellous thing (when it's done right, and frankly said there's more indifferent to bad stuff out there than there is the really excellent), but we should not elevate it to the status of a sacred cow. Even in this, the Year of the Ox!

30th January 2009, 06:50 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Alex and Philip, Thankyou for continuing this discussion. I think I should add a picture of the entire piece, so that you can see why I was suprised to notice the layering. I've had this knife for a long long time and have only recently 're-found' it. I asked a question about its identity a while ago and was pleased to find out that these Indian/Nepalese hunting type knives do have a following. I did not however expect that the balde would be anything other than plain steel. Imagine my suprise? Philip. Absolutely, I'm happy whatever it is. I am just happy its not a land-rover leaf spring! I am still smiling at the unexpected bonus of having this interesting new aspect to something I'd taken for granted for so many years. Gene P.S.some decent daylight here would be nice to get some better pictures! Bloody overcast days. Last edited by Atlantia; 31st January 2009 at 12:56 AM.

29th January 2009, 07:23 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	I tend to think that the surface patterning is due to layering, and as such it would be a form of pattern-weld. The effect, which reminds me of pamor or hada, appears to be too continuous to be the crystalline dendrites which are the characteristic of wootz. The eye can follow the lines in the pattern for a distance, whereas the visual impression given by wootz tends to be like flowing water: there is a current but the individual ripples aren't contiguous. Furthermore, in the two pics I see what look like pockets of black carbon which are oriented along the undulating lines. These look like the cold-shuts resulting from imperfect welds which sometimes occur in the production of a pattern-welded or folded-steel lamellar blade.

29th January 2009, 12:55 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	HI Phillip, Thanks for coming in on this. I had a quick look for 'sham wootz' online last night and noticed some similar discussions about if 'sham' should really even be described as wootz, is that what we're seeing here, or do you think this shouldn't be categorised as sham and is 'just' a finely layered/folded steel? Regards Gene

29th January 2009, 07:52 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I agree with RSWORD. This is typical sham pattern. Some still debate sham's attribution to wootz, but it has not been officially declared as non-wootz. The inferiority of sham comparing to other more prominent patterns is another topic, but generally speaking - sham wootz is still wootz

31st January 2009, 09:00 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I'm really suprised this hasn't engendered more discussion.

31st January 2009, 09:51 PM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	I forwarded this discussion page to smith Ric Furrer, who lives in Wisconsin and is one of the few in his trade to have mastered the art of making wootz, and he also thinks tthat this blade is something else. Hopefully he'll be posting on this thread soon with an explanation.