Victorian Wall Decoration?

Atlantia · 27th January 2009, 02:41 PM

Hi Robert,

What a fine piece!
I do love these mystery pieces and the detective work that happens when one is posted.
I looked at the pictures before I read your history as I wanted a clear first impression.

Looking at the pommel, the fine engraved wavy lines reminded me of late 18thC and 19thC items with simple mechanically added decoration. Rather an elaborate pommel, nice and big to hopefully bring the point of balance to the right place.
Big steel collar at the top of the handle? Thats a bit 'sudden' Handle seems rather on the long side, plain, wood has an age split, can't see any holes or evidence of previous wire binding?

Quillons/guard/counterguards! Hmmm, Rather elaborate and nice! Steel, difficult to work, business like and not overly fancy, but certainly attractive and stylish. Rather good, getting more interesting! Quite heavy and the 'guard' elements almost look like they are soldered to the quillons?

Blade.
Looks quite heavy, almost like it would be more at home in a basket hilt than swept.

By now I'm thinking its a fancy continental (Spanish) piece, Nice and heavy fair quality, possibly for work out in the colonies. Date... omg... I don't know. Late 18th to mid 19th?

Post 3 musketeers, pre El Zorro!

But I'm imagining a chap rather like Ricardo Montalban carrying it (from the Zorro film)
Then I read your story! So I think that fits.

How about some better pics of the blade and close ups of the hilt?

I'll be interested when the really knowledgeable members arrive to pin it down conclusively.

BTW, I love it!

Gene

celtan · 27th January 2009, 03:50 PM

I own a 18th C. swedish sword with a blade very similar to this one. Also, the center ridge and the ricasso suggest a good blade, perhaps rehilted for decoration purposes?
M

Robert · 27th January 2009, 04:29 PM

Hello Gene, I'm glad you had a chance to take a look at this. I'll start with the wooden grip. If you look closely at the sixth picture down right above the steel collar you can just see where wire was once wound around the wood. When I originally removed the friction tape that had been wrapped around the grip (only to find the wood had also been given the paint treatment too) a few broken coils of rusty braided wire fell out from between the collar and wood. The wood has been roughly sanded before they painted it

probably after the wire had started falling off. After stripping the paint off of the wood I put a preservative on it to try to keep it from further damage. The parts of the guard that look like knots do look to be soldered in place while the rest of the guard is one piece of worked steel. Where would the POB on a sword like this be? Right now it is 4-3/4 inches from the cross guard. If you would please tell me what parts of the blade you would like to have pictures of and I will post them as soon as it quits snowing. Thank you again for your interest.

Robert

Atlantia · 27th January 2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Gene, I'm glad you had a chance to take a look at this. I'll start with the wooden grip. If you look closely at the sixth picture down right above the steel collar you can just see where wire was once wound around the wood. When I originally removed the friction tape that had been wrapped around the grip (only to find the wood had also been given the paint treatment too) a few broken coils of rusty braided wire fell out from between the collar and wood. The wood has been roughly sanded before they painted it

probably after the wire had started falling off. After stripping the paint off of the wood I put a preservative on it to try to keep it from further damage. The parts of the guard that look like knots do look to be soldered in place while the rest of the guard is one piece of worked steel. Where would the POB on a sword like this be? Right now it is 4-3/4 inches from the cross guard. If you would please tell me what parts of the blade you would like to have pictures of and I will post them as soon as it quits snowing. Thank you again for your interest.

Robert

Hi Robert,

4 3/4" off of the actual crossbar quillons? Or from the bottom of the curling bars attached to them?

Does the blade look like its shortered? The tip is unusual (from swords I've had) having the central ridge so pronounced right to the end.

Um, pictures of the blade....
Well any marks at all, either side, top and bottom?

Perhaps Manuel can post some pics of his if it looks similar for a comparison?

So, those bars.
A close up of a couple of the joins might be a good idea.
Have you had a good look to see if it is solder?
In fairness you don't really want solder on a hilt as lead is fairly soft.
But there does look like quite a lot of it! Couldn't be remains of some silvering or paint caught in the recesses that someone has put on it could it?

Gene

Robert · 27th January 2009, 05:45 PM

Hi Gene, The POB is in front of the actual crossbar quillons. I don't think that the blade has been shortened BWDIK. I will post a picture of the tip of the blade but I will have to do it inside with a flash. As far as the solder goes I don't think it is lead solder (it is way to hard) but it could be the remains of some kind of silvering. Could this be some kind of silver solder, or was silver solder even used then? Like I said it is only where the knotted sections are. The main part of the curling bars and the actual crossbar quillons and the rest are all one piece. Could the knots have been added later as decoration? I too was hoping that Manuel would post some pictures and measurements of his sword for comparison. Thanks again and I will post pictures shortly.

Robert

Atlantia · 27th January 2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hi Gene, The POB is in front of the actual crossbar quillons. I don't think that the blade has been shortened BWDIK. I will post a picture of the tip of the blade but I will have to do it inside with a flash. As far as the solder goes I don't think it is lead solder (it is way to hard) but it could be the remains of some kind of silvering. Could this be some kind of silver solder, or was silver solder even used then? Like I said it is only where the knotted sections are. The main part of the curling bars and the actual crossbar quillons and the rest are all one piece. Could the knots have been added later as decoration? I too was hoping that Manuel would post some pictures and measurements of his sword for comparison. Thanks again and I will post pictures shortly.

Robert

Well, from what is visible in the pictures, there is considerable work in those bars, and the main ones seem to be 'forged' and shaped, so it might just be that the secondary elements were attached with some kind of silver coloured braze or hard solder as the maker thought that adequate for their level of stress.

Take a couple of close ups of the bars if your can too mate.

Robert · 27th January 2009, 06:55 PM

Gene, Here are the best ones I could get inside. A little picture intensive so if this is to many mods please let me know and I will delete as many as needed. These give a good idea of how the guard is put together. As I mentioned earlier the only parts that are not forged together are the knotted pieces. I made a typing error on the POB, it was supposed to be 5-3/4 inches so I double checked it and it is actually 6 inches.

Robert

kisak · 27th January 2009, 09:57 PM

Expanding on what Manuel said, this type of blade is seen on a number of Swedish heavy cavalry swords from the 18th century (and a few cavalry swords from the early parts of said century as well). To provide some examples I'm attaching a close-up of an m/1773 (colour), and a scanned full-length shot of an m/1775 for Småland's cavalry regiment (b&w).

These two would have slightly shorter blades than Coleman's, but there are other, similar models with blades matching very well (m/1761 and m/1778 for Västgöta' cavalry regiment, and then of course there's the possibility of an officer custom-ordering something). I have pretty much no idea at all if, and then to what extent, this blade shape saw use outside of Sweden.

As for the overall package, it looks very much to me like assembled in the 19th century as a decorative.

27th January 2009, 02:41 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Robert, What a fine piece! I do love these mystery pieces and the detective work that happens when one is posted. I looked at the pictures before I read your history as I wanted a clear first impression. Looking at the pommel, the fine engraved wavy lines reminded me of late 18thC and 19thC items with simple mechanically added decoration. Rather an elaborate pommel, nice and big to hopefully bring the point of balance to the right place. Big steel collar at the top of the handle? Thats a bit 'sudden' Handle seems rather on the long side, plain, wood has an age split, can't see any holes or evidence of previous wire binding? Quillons/guard/counterguards! Hmmm, Rather elaborate and nice! Steel, difficult to work, business like and not overly fancy, but certainly attractive and stylish. Rather good, getting more interesting! Quite heavy and the 'guard' elements almost look like they are soldered to the quillons? Blade. Looks quite heavy, almost like it would be more at home in a basket hilt than swept. By now I'm thinking its a fancy continental (Spanish) piece, Nice and heavy fair quality, possibly for work out in the colonies. Date... omg... I don't know. Late 18th to mid 19th? Post 3 musketeers, pre El Zorro! But I'm imagining a chap rather like Ricardo Montalban carrying it (from the Zorro film) Then I read your story! So I think that fits. How about some better pics of the blade and close ups of the hilt? I'll be interested when the really knowledgeable members arrive to pin it down conclusively. BTW, I love it! Gene Last edited by Atlantia; 27th January 2009 at 03:55 PM.

27th January 2009, 06:55 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, Here are the best ones I could get inside. A little picture intensive so if this is to many mods please let me know and I will delete as many as needed. These give a good idea of how the guard is put together. As I mentioned earlier the only parts that are not forged together are the knotted pieces. I made a typing error on the POB, it was supposed to be 5-3/4 inches so I double checked it and it is actually 6 inches. Robert Attached Images

27th January 2009, 09:57 PM	#8
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Expanding on what Manuel said, this type of blade is seen on a number of Swedish heavy cavalry swords from the 18th century (and a few cavalry swords from the early parts of said century as well). To provide some examples I'm attaching a close-up of an m/1773 (colour), and a scanned full-length shot of an m/1775 for Småland's cavalry regiment (b&w). These two would have slightly shorter blades than Coleman's, but there are other, similar models with blades matching very well (m/1761 and m/1778 for Västgöta' cavalry regiment, and then of course there's the possibility of an officer custom-ordering something). I have pretty much no idea at all if, and then to what extent, this blade shape saw use outside of Sweden. As for the overall package, it looks very much to me like assembled in the 19th century as a decorative. Attached Images

27th January 2009, 03:50 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I own a 18th C. swedish sword with a blade very similar to this one. Also, the center ridge and the ricasso suggest a good blade, perhaps rehilted for decoration purposes? M

27th January 2009, 04:29 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Gene, I'm glad you had a chance to take a look at this. I'll start with the wooden grip. If you look closely at the sixth picture down right above the steel collar you can just see where wire was once wound around the wood. When I originally removed the friction tape that had been wrapped around the grip (only to find the wood had also been given the paint treatment too) a few broken coils of rusty braided wire fell out from between the collar and wood. The wood has been roughly sanded before they painted it probably after the wire had started falling off. After stripping the paint off of the wood I put a preservative on it to try to keep it from further damage. The parts of the guard that look like knots do look to be soldered in place while the rest of the guard is one piece of worked steel. Where would the POB on a sword like this be? Right now it is 4-3/4 inches from the cross guard. If you would please tell me what parts of the blade you would like to have pictures of and I will post them as soon as it quits snowing. Thank you again for your interest. Robert

27th January 2009, 05:45 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Gene, The POB is in front of the actual crossbar quillons. I don't think that the blade has been shortened BWDIK. I will post a picture of the tip of the blade but I will have to do it inside with a flash. As far as the solder goes I don't think it is lead solder (it is way to hard) but it could be the remains of some kind of silvering. Could this be some kind of silver solder, or was silver solder even used then? Like I said it is only where the knotted sections are. The main part of the curling bars and the actual crossbar quillons and the rest are all one piece. Could the knots have been added later as decoration? I too was hoping that Manuel would post some pictures and measurements of his sword for comparison. Thanks again and I will post pictures shortly. Robert