Borneo Piso

Mytribalworld · 22nd January 2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

There is some debate as to the value of this carved antler handle especially as this form is not in the books and is in current use by the tourist industry today. Over the years I have learnt that the books are really only a guide. Most of my collection is not in the books perhaps that is why I could afford to buy them. I could also suggest that the current tourist industry form must surely have a point of origin, perhaps not fully appriecated, you know how conservative parts of the weapon collecting world can be.

I am a carver myself. You can see pleny of pride in this work, carved nooks and crannies lots of leechs. The Medusa type head on the end must have looked super before the damage. Why carve all that and then damage it? does not make sense to me. Why not fake it up complete and get a better price. I post these close up pics and every one will just have to make there own minds up. I think you know which way my mind is set.

Hi Tim,

Actually I don't think the whole item is a fake. Based on what I see on carving and damage , patina etc on the handle I think it was once a knob of a walking stick. Also dayak carvers made walking sticks. I don't think its antique but more from the 50 or 60's. If its was earlier the carving is mostly finer. The scabbard and blade are in my opinion added on Java or Bali.
The combination is certainly not matching.
The handle is surely not bad. Feel free to ask opinions in the future from me or other forumities before you trade/swap.
My advice, separate the handle and base it... But maybe that an easy advice as I am mandauhilt collector.But sometimes I like a handle more without blade than with.

on the place where the resin ring begins the horn seems to be in two pieces?

Arjan.

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2009, 08:08 PM

Thank you, your comments are in the least encouraging. I still cannot see why it is not what it is. Given that Sarawak was a mixing pot. Nobody has suggested or produced anything that in any way distracts from what it appears to be. A short sword

.

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2009, 08:49 PM

Giving up for today I can only assume that this is a reletively rare. Rather like the mauser thing.

Tim Simmons · 25th January 2009, 05:55 PM

Yep its a dud. Doing more investigation I have disscovered that the blade has been set into the handle with melted plastic from a washing up bowl or something similar. So I got my arse well and truely kicked.

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 08:38 PM

Something from the Borneo wars. British soldiers in remote parts of Sabah and Sarawak. Tribesmen putting modern things to use? Lets look at this agian when does this form of hilt appear? I cannot see the handle as bad work. Is it possible as suggested before that as time moves on forms do change. Does that mean they are fake?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:04 PM

http://www.nmbva.co.uk/

asomotif · 29th January 2009, 09:17 PM

Hello Tim,

I did not really look into this thread before.
To be honest because at first impression the piece does look like something put together for the tourists.

The blade and scabbard appear to be matching, but they must be something from Java IMHO.might well be early 20th century.

The handle as Arjan already mentioned is carved pretty rough and not very traditional. sometimes you see mandaus with hilts that have more or less this style. It is not what most collectors are looking for in a mandau hilt.
But as times change also designs on Borneo change.
So it can be a mandau handle maybe from the 70'.

Than there is the red wrapping around the hilt.
Is it some kind of ray skin ? or is it plastic imitation ray skin ?
This is something that I would certainly place outside of Borneo.

Than you mention that the hilt was fixed with melted plastic.
if it was put together on Borneo I think they would have used resin / damar as this is the traditional way of fixing hilts on Borneo.

All together, my opinion is also that the piece was put together.
Where, I do not know. But not by someone with Dayak background.

Best regards,
Willem

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:23 PM

It is real ray or shark skin I have no idea if it is dyed but i do know the are some colourful sharks and rays? In many ways melting a plastic trade bucket or bowl is a lot easier than the traditional resin route as I have tried myself? Instant glue and cheap? I accept it is a trade blade, what is odd about that?

VANDOO · 29th January 2009, 09:21 PM

OBSERVATIONS. THE SECTION OF ANTLER USED TO CARVE THE HANDLE WAS NOT THE PRIME PIECE WHICH IS USUALLY USED FOR DAYAK HANDLES. IT APPEARS TO BE FROM A SMALLER ANTLER PERHAPS A SPIKE SO THE LARGE FORK THAT IS USUALLY USED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PRESENT ON THAT ANTLER SO THE BUTTON AND FIRST SMALL SPIKE WAS SELECTED FOR CARVING. THAT WOULD LIMIT WHAT COULD BE CARVED AND WOULD DETERMINE THE FINAL SHAPE THESE FACTS DON'T NECESSARILY POINT TO MODIFICATION OR FAKERY AS A SMALLER ANTLER WOULD BE USED IF BETTER ONES WERE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE BUYER WHO WANTED A HANDLE CARVED WAS LOW ON CASH.

THE BLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE MANUFACTURED BY DAYAK AND WOULD NOT BE THE PREFERRED FORM OR STYLE USED BY THEM.
THE RED FLAG I SEE THAT MAKES ME AGREE THAT THIS MAY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN BALI IS THE USE OF DYED RAYSKIN THERE IS AN INDUSTRY OF THAT IN BALI AND QUITE A LOT OF WEAPONS ARE EITHER MADE OR FIND THEIR WAY TO BALI'S SHOPS. THE CARVERS COULD EASILY HAVE CARVED THE HANDLE AND IF THE PIECE OF ANTLER THAT IS STILL ROUGH IS SEPARATE FROM THE CARVED POMMEL OR IS PART OF THE SAME ANTLER BUT LEFT ROUGH THAT WOULD NOT BE A DAYAK CARVING TECKNIQUE OR AT LEAST I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.
THIS DISCUSSION IS PRODUCTIVE IN THAT WE ALL WILL BE MORE ON GAURD AND AWARE SO WILL LOOK MUCH CLOSER AT SUCH ITEMS. STILL IT IS A NICE LOOKING ITEM AND WHO KNOWS SOME LOCAL IN SARAWAK/KUCHING MAY HAVE COBBLED IT TOGETHER BUT THE ODDS SEEM TO BE AGAINST IT UNLESS THEY IMPORTED SOME RAYSKIN FROM BALI.

22nd January 2009, 08:08 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Thank you, your comments are in the least encouraging. I still cannot see why it is not what it is. Given that Sarawak was a mixing pot. Nobody has suggested or produced anything that in any way distracts from what it appears to be. A short sword . Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd January 2009 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Spelling

22nd January 2009, 08:49 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Giving up for today I can only assume that this is a reletively rare. Rather like the mauser thing.

25th January 2009, 05:55 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Yep its a dud. Doing more investigation I have disscovered that the blade has been set into the handle with melted plastic from a washing up bowl or something similar. So I got my arse well and truely kicked.

29th January 2009, 08:38 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Something from the Borneo wars. British soldiers in remote parts of Sabah and Sarawak. Tribesmen putting modern things to use? Lets look at this agian when does this form of hilt appear? I cannot see the handle as bad work. Is it possible as suggested before that as time moves on forms do change. Does that mean they are fake?

29th January 2009, 09:04 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	http://www.nmbva.co.uk/

29th January 2009, 09:17 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hello Tim, I did not really look into this thread before. To be honest because at first impression the piece does look like something put together for the tourists. The blade and scabbard appear to be matching, but they must be something from Java IMHO.might well be early 20th century. The handle as Arjan already mentioned is carved pretty rough and not very traditional. sometimes you see mandaus with hilts that have more or less this style. It is not what most collectors are looking for in a mandau hilt. But as times change also designs on Borneo change. So it can be a mandau handle maybe from the 70'. Than there is the red wrapping around the hilt. Is it some kind of ray skin ? or is it plastic imitation ray skin ? This is something that I would certainly place outside of Borneo. Than you mention that the hilt was fixed with melted plastic. if it was put together on Borneo I think they would have used resin / damar as this is the traditional way of fixing hilts on Borneo. All together, my opinion is also that the piece was put together. Where, I do not know. But not by someone with Dayak background. Best regards, Willem

29th January 2009, 09:23 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	It is real ray or shark skin I have no idea if it is dyed but i do know the are some colourful sharks and rays? In many ways melting a plastic trade bucket or bowl is a lot easier than the traditional resin route as I have tried myself? Instant glue and cheap? I accept it is a trade blade, what is odd about that?

29th January 2009, 09:21 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OBSERVATIONS. THE SECTION OF ANTLER USED TO CARVE THE HANDLE WAS NOT THE PRIME PIECE WHICH IS USUALLY USED FOR DAYAK HANDLES. IT APPEARS TO BE FROM A SMALLER ANTLER PERHAPS A SPIKE SO THE LARGE FORK THAT IS USUALLY USED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PRESENT ON THAT ANTLER SO THE BUTTON AND FIRST SMALL SPIKE WAS SELECTED FOR CARVING. THAT WOULD LIMIT WHAT COULD BE CARVED AND WOULD DETERMINE THE FINAL SHAPE THESE FACTS DON'T NECESSARILY POINT TO MODIFICATION OR FAKERY AS A SMALLER ANTLER WOULD BE USED IF BETTER ONES WERE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE BUYER WHO WANTED A HANDLE CARVED WAS LOW ON CASH. THE BLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE MANUFACTURED BY DAYAK AND WOULD NOT BE THE PREFERRED FORM OR STYLE USED BY THEM. THE RED FLAG I SEE THAT MAKES ME AGREE THAT THIS MAY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN BALI IS THE USE OF DYED RAYSKIN THERE IS AN INDUSTRY OF THAT IN BALI AND QUITE A LOT OF WEAPONS ARE EITHER MADE OR FIND THEIR WAY TO BALI'S SHOPS. THE CARVERS COULD EASILY HAVE CARVED THE HANDLE AND IF THE PIECE OF ANTLER THAT IS STILL ROUGH IS SEPARATE FROM THE CARVED POMMEL OR IS PART OF THE SAME ANTLER BUT LEFT ROUGH THAT WOULD NOT BE A DAYAK CARVING TECKNIQUE OR AT LEAST I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE. THIS DISCUSSION IS PRODUCTIVE IN THAT WE ALL WILL BE MORE ON GAURD AND AWARE SO WILL LOOK MUCH CLOSER AT SUCH ITEMS. STILL IT IS A NICE LOOKING ITEM AND WHO KNOWS SOME LOCAL IN SARAWAK/KUCHING MAY HAVE COBBLED IT TOGETHER BUT THE ODDS SEEM TO BE AGAINST IT UNLESS THEY IMPORTED SOME RAYSKIN FROM BALI.