kaskara konundrum

katana · 21st January 2009, 12:46 PM

Nearly all Kaskara I have seen either have 3 thin fullers (centrally placed on the blade) or one wide, central fuller. This blade appears to have two offset from centre, which possibly suggests that the blade could have been originally, single edged ? Re-worked to be double edged ?.... What is definate is that the fullering was done before the markings.

I think India 'springs to mind' due to the influence of 'their' weapons design on a number of weapons manufactured during the Madhist uprising.

As we all know pictures can tell lies, I hope the new owner posts this sword....I think we need more information... that only the new owner can provide.

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2009, 02:53 PM

The conundrum term originally used here well describes this sword and in particular its blade. A conundrum is described as a paradoxical, insoluble or difficult problem; a dilemma.

I agree that postulation would be misplaced here, and the suggestions are presented as such to be considered rather than deemed any kind of assertion. While blades were indeed made locally in a number of locations in Africa, in this case the Sudan, there remained considerable numbers of trade blades throughout the vast networks of trade in Northern Africa. These were diffused and traded hands over long periods of time and through many means, and heirloom blades were often handed down in families or within tribal groups, resulting in remounting many times.

David's note on the blades typically produced in North African centers usually having three fullers is largely well placed, though at least one other form with deep central fuller is also known. The key point is that the blades, as previously mentioned, are invariably broadsword, that is with two edges.
With the fullers on this blade placed asymmetrically suggests of course that it was originally a backsword. As far as I know, no backsword blades would have been produced in Africa for the traditional native swords of North Africa, specifically the takouba and kaskara.
I will note that there is a variation of takouba using a curved blade, apparantly usually of European origin.

The native swordsmanship using broadswords favored slashing cuts, rather than thrusts, which is why broadswords were preferred. If this blade was a backsword form from an Arab or Indian source, and as David has pointed out, there are profound instances of weapons reflecting such influences and origins, then it does seem likely the back would have been ground away.

Very good point Ariel, on the very international presence of the eyelash/sickle mark, in fact that is the very reason it is so difficult to use in identifying blades. As you have well noted, it has travelled widely from its presumed origins in Italy, through trade into Styria and the Caucusus, and Central Asia and India as well. In Africa it is known primarily through trade blades, and as far as I know was not one of the images copied by the native smiths. The occurrence of these eyelash markings on African sword blades in most cases appears with others such as bracketing the familiar Andrea Ferara inscription, and occasionally others, but not singularly.
On the other hand, in Afghanistan, the sickle/eyelash mark does appear singularly and invariably, on the curved native blades of the paluoar. As noted, in the Caucusus, typically on Chechen blades, the marking denotes the blades known as 'gurda'.

All very best regards,
Jim

stephen wood · 23rd January 2009, 12:25 AM

...I am certain that the blade is from India - I have something very similar (no eyelashes) with a typical tulwar hilt. As for grinding a single-edged blade (with, maybe, a false edge) into a double edged blade, there is precedent.

I suppose the nightmare scenario would be that it was put together from parts by a late-Victorian enthusiast who had seen images of the kaskara in the press. If it was hilted in the Sudan, why was the customary crossguard not fitted.

As for Indian weapons in North Africa - I recall seeing a tulwar in the National Army Museum which was picked up during the Egyptian campaign after an engagement with Mamelukes...

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2009, 06:28 AM

Hi Stephen,
I suppose that an enthusiastic collector in England putting this together with that extremely unusual hilt is possible, but my question would be, why? Kaskaras are by no means difficult to find, and it seems like creating this guard, and adding what appears to be authentic Darfur grip and pommel seems a great deal of trouble, and very odd.
If I recall, many years ago I saw a tulwar hilt sword with what was clearly a tulwar blade, pretty sure that Bottomley had it. That was the only one I had ever seen, and I have always wondered why, with the well established trade between India and Red Sea, into Egypt, that Indian tulwars were never seen there. Clearly there were distinct weapon influences from India, and the trade carrying the desirable cowrie shells that are so well known in West Africa, from the Maldives, by Arab traders into Egypt, across the Sahara to the western Sudan, eventually to West Africa.

With the diffusion of so many weapon forms seen along so many trade routes, it seems another conundrum to try to determine how certain weapon forms (at least the hilts, as we have seen) typically have remained so faithfully indiginous. For example, the takouba hilt form remains profoundly Saharan, while the kaskara ,Sudanese, from Niger to Sudan, Eritrea but seldom ever further west. The flyssa has always for its relatively short career remained Kabyle/Berber in Algeria, and remains an edged weapons mystery as to what its true ancestry might be. Naturally there are others, including the tulwar, which has seemed to never have left the Indian subcontinent, but for the rare instance you have noted, and confirms that at least some might have escaped!

But then, these edged weapons conundrums, and anomalies are really what makes the study of weapons so fascinating!!!

Thank you for posting this kaskara, great adventure

All the best,
Jim

Lew · 23rd January 2009, 11:22 AM

Jim

I think that blade was a reworked Indian kirash.

katana · 23rd January 2009, 01:36 PM

Assuming this is an Indian blade that was originally fixed to a 'tulwar hilt' ...I would suggest that the rivetted crossguard was functional. The tang on such a blade would have been relatively short....compared to that of a kaskara blade.
To 're-inforce' the tang fixture, rivetting the crossguard through the blade makes sense ....bearing in mind that part of the 'langet' is bound/fixed to the hilt. The langet above the hilt is in fact wider, it is one piece with the lower section but 'stepped'.....this again suggests that a 'good, solid' fixing of the crossguard to the handle was required ....to which finally the blade was rivetted...

I am assuming that ... indeed, the rivet passes through the blade ....so is just pure speculation

Regards David

CharlesS · 23rd January 2009, 03:39 PM

I'd like to make one comment on Jim's excellent observations, that is, in regards to the tulwar not travelling out of the Indian subcontinent.

I think the piso podang of Sumatra, primarily, but also seen in other regions, including Borneo, is very heavily influenced by the tulwar, or at the very least the earlier more archaic Indian hilts. There are some good old examples in Elgood's latest work that match up nicely to the piso podang form. In most cases the piso podang is shorter than the average tulwar and that is an adaptation, but otherwise, I think, clearly influenced by the "travelling tulwar".

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Assuming this is an Indian blade that was originally fixed to a 'tulwar hilt' ...I would suggest that the rivetted crossguard was functional. The tang on such a blade would have been relatively short....compared to that of a kaskara blade.
To 're-inforce' the tang fixture, rivetting the crossguard through the blade makes sense ....bearing in mind that part of the 'langet' is bound/fixed to the hilt. The langet above the hilt is in fact wider, it is one piece with the lower section but 'stepped'.....this again suggests that a 'good, solid' fixing of the crossguard to the handle was required ....to which finally the blade was rivetted...

I am assuming that ... indeed, the rivet passes through the blade ....so is just pure speculation

Regards David

David, you bring up a most valid observation, another I had overlooked. That is this strange rivet feature in the center of the crossguard. About two years ago, Richard (Pukka Bundook) had a tulwar in tragic condition ("Bad News Tulwar" thread) that he beautifully restored. In the center of the crossguard, there was a rivetlike square, which I cannot recall whether functional or not, I dont believe that entered the discussion. In any case it was replaced by an aesthetic flower feature which looked great.
In the discussion, another tulwar which was one of the Rajput type form with the stem type appendage of Hindu basket hilt type on the pommel, had this centrally placed decoration in the crossguard. Again it was presumed to be a decorative feature associated with function, i.e. support as described.

I think your observation is really interesting and seems to further the support of the influence in degree of Indian weapons in the Sudan. It just seems that these often decorative rivet type features did exist on some tulwars, whether functional or not. Your case for the functionality according to the tang length seems extremely plausible as well.

The upper langet extension overwrapped and banded by the grip material is also a good observation. Much like the wire wrap over many shamshir hilts in this manner to secure and strengthen the blades reaction to the force of impact. This is seen in this fashion particularly in many Arabian sa'if (which often in the 19th century had straight SE blades) and is a feature also seen on Indian shamshirs in certain cases.
As I have often noted, I like your thinking !

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Jim

I think that blade was a reworked Indian kirash.

Hi Lew,
A good suggestion, but if I understand correctly and from what I recall, most of these kirach blades are shorter,and much stouter in form, more akin to the Khyber 'knife' type blades. These were indeed single edged, and heavy, seemingly for more chopping type action.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 23rd January 2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Jim

I think that blade was a reworked Indian kirash.

Anything is possible Lew; but it seems awfully long to be a kirach ..

Lew · 23rd January 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Anything is possible Lew; but it seems awfully long to be a kirach ..

I was thinking along the lines of this type of kirash

.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2009, 01:16 AM

As for Indian weapons in North Africa - I recall seeing a tulwar in the National Army Museum which was picked up during the Egyptian campaign after an engagement with Mamelukes...[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Hi Stephen,
I found the reference in my notes concerning the tulwar hilted kaskara, which was the open hilt style, no knuckleguard and standard triple fuller, thuluth covered blade. It was in Andrew Bottomley's catalog #5 (#556) 1996.
I kept the reference because I was intrigued by the incongruent association, and wondered if this was the real deal or not. It does seem a number of unusual items were brought back from the Sudan after the campaigns, and apparantly the occurrence extends much further back.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 05:46 PM

Charles I sent you a PM.

21st January 2009, 02:53 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	The conundrum term originally used here well describes this sword and in particular its blade. A conundrum is described as a paradoxical, insoluble or difficult problem; a dilemma. I agree that postulation would be misplaced here, and the suggestions are presented as such to be considered rather than deemed any kind of assertion. While blades were indeed made locally in a number of locations in Africa, in this case the Sudan, there remained considerable numbers of trade blades throughout the vast networks of trade in Northern Africa. These were diffused and traded hands over long periods of time and through many means, and heirloom blades were often handed down in families or within tribal groups, resulting in remounting many times. David's note on the blades typically produced in North African centers usually having three fullers is largely well placed, though at least one other form with deep central fuller is also known. The key point is that the blades, as previously mentioned, are invariably broadsword, that is with two edges. With the fullers on this blade placed asymmetrically suggests of course that it was originally a backsword. As far as I know, no backsword blades would have been produced in Africa for the traditional native swords of North Africa, specifically the takouba and kaskara. I will note that there is a variation of takouba using a curved blade, apparantly usually of European origin. The native swordsmanship using broadswords favored slashing cuts, rather than thrusts, which is why broadswords were preferred. If this blade was a backsword form from an Arab or Indian source, and as David has pointed out, there are profound instances of weapons reflecting such influences and origins, then it does seem likely the back would have been ground away. Very good point Ariel, on the very international presence of the eyelash/sickle mark, in fact that is the very reason it is so difficult to use in identifying blades. As you have well noted, it has travelled widely from its presumed origins in Italy, through trade into Styria and the Caucusus, and Central Asia and India as well. In Africa it is known primarily through trade blades, and as far as I know was not one of the images copied by the native smiths. The occurrence of these eyelash markings on African sword blades in most cases appears with others such as bracketing the familiar Andrea Ferara inscription, and occasionally others, but not singularly. On the other hand, in Afghanistan, the sickle/eyelash mark does appear singularly and invariably, on the curved native blades of the paluoar. As noted, in the Caucusus, typically on Chechen blades, the marking denotes the blades known as 'gurda'. All very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st January 2009 at 03:25 PM.

23rd January 2009, 01:36 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Assuming this is an Indian blade that was originally fixed to a 'tulwar hilt' ...I would suggest that the rivetted crossguard was functional. The tang on such a blade would have been relatively short....compared to that of a kaskara blade. To 're-inforce' the tang fixture, rivetting the crossguard through the blade makes sense ....bearing in mind that part of the 'langet' is bound/fixed to the hilt. The langet above the hilt is in fact wider, it is one piece with the lower section but 'stepped'.....this again suggests that a 'good, solid' fixing of the crossguard to the handle was required ....to which finally the blade was rivetted... I am assuming that ... indeed, the rivet passes through the blade ....so is just pure speculation Regards David Attached Images

21st January 2009, 12:46 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Nearly all Kaskara I have seen either have 3 thin fullers (centrally placed on the blade) or one wide, central fuller. This blade appears to have two offset from centre, which possibly suggests that the blade could have been originally, single edged ? Re-worked to be double edged ?.... What is definate is that the fullering was done before the markings. I think India 'springs to mind' due to the influence of 'their' weapons design on a number of weapons manufactured during the Madhist uprising. As we all know pictures can tell lies, I hope the new owner posts this sword....I think we need more information... that only the new owner can provide. Kind Regards David

23rd January 2009, 12:25 AM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...I am certain that the blade is from India - I have something very similar (no eyelashes) with a typical tulwar hilt. As for grinding a single-edged blade (with, maybe, a false edge) into a double edged blade, there is precedent. I suppose the nightmare scenario would be that it was put together from parts by a late-Victorian enthusiast who had seen images of the kaskara in the press. If it was hilted in the Sudan, why was the customary crossguard not fitted. As for Indian weapons in North Africa - I recall seeing a tulwar in the National Army Museum which was picked up during the Egyptian campaign after an engagement with Mamelukes...

23rd January 2009, 06:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Hi Stephen, I suppose that an enthusiastic collector in England putting this together with that extremely unusual hilt is possible, but my question would be, why? Kaskaras are by no means difficult to find, and it seems like creating this guard, and adding what appears to be authentic Darfur grip and pommel seems a great deal of trouble, and very odd. If I recall, many years ago I saw a tulwar hilt sword with what was clearly a tulwar blade, pretty sure that Bottomley had it. That was the only one I had ever seen, and I have always wondered why, with the well established trade between India and Red Sea, into Egypt, that Indian tulwars were never seen there. Clearly there were distinct weapon influences from India, and the trade carrying the desirable cowrie shells that are so well known in West Africa, from the Maldives, by Arab traders into Egypt, across the Sahara to the western Sudan, eventually to West Africa. With the diffusion of so many weapon forms seen along so many trade routes, it seems another conundrum to try to determine how certain weapon forms (at least the hilts, as we have seen) typically have remained so faithfully indiginous. For example, the takouba hilt form remains profoundly Saharan, while the kaskara ,Sudanese, from Niger to Sudan, Eritrea but seldom ever further west. The flyssa has always for its relatively short career remained Kabyle/Berber in Algeria, and remains an edged weapons mystery as to what its true ancestry might be. Naturally there are others, including the tulwar, which has seemed to never have left the Indian subcontinent, but for the rare instance you have noted, and confirms that at least some might have escaped! But then, these edged weapons conundrums, and anomalies are really what makes the study of weapons so fascinating!!! Thank you for posting this kaskara, great adventure All the best, Jim

23rd January 2009, 11:22 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim I think that blade was a reworked Indian kirash. Last edited by Rick; 23rd January 2009 at 03:53 PM.

23rd January 2009, 03:39 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I'd like to make one comment on Jim's excellent observations, that is, in regards to the tulwar not travelling out of the Indian subcontinent. I think the piso podang of Sumatra, primarily, but also seen in other regions, including Borneo, is very heavily influenced by the tulwar, or at the very least the earlier more archaic Indian hilts. There are some good old examples in Elgood's latest work that match up nicely to the *piso podang* form. In most cases the piso podang is shorter than the average tulwar and that is an adaptation, but otherwise, I think, clearly influenced by the "travelling tulwar".

27th January 2009, 01:16 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	As for Indian weapons in North Africa - I recall seeing a tulwar in the National Army Museum which was picked up during the Egyptian campaign after an engagement with Mamelukes...[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE] Hi Stephen, I found the reference in my notes concerning the tulwar hilted kaskara, which was the open hilt style, no knuckleguard and standard triple fuller, thuluth covered blade. It was in Andrew Bottomley's catalog #5 (#556) 1996. I kept the reference because I was intrigued by the incongruent association, and wondered if this was the real deal or not. It does seem a number of unusual items were brought back from the Sudan after the campaigns, and apparantly the occurrence extends much further back. All best regards, Jim

1st April 2009, 05:46 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Charles I sent you a PM.