Non European forces proving themselves Vs European military might

[KuKulzA28]

Ming Dynasty and Ching Dynasty armies were extremely powerful. So were Japanese armies in that 1500s/1600s time period. The Moghuls, the Sikhs, the South Indians... the Moros, the Afghans, the Mayans... they were all people who could fight and adapt. Their reasons for NOT restructuring their war doctrine was that, for their own geographic location, they didn't necessarily need to. The Ming Dynasty had a military that ranged from crack cavalry battalions and musket regiments in the north, to 11-man squads in the south. They had a good navy and were all well-organized. Look at Zheng Cheng Gong (Koxinga), he had an appreciation for modernization and had he succeeded in creating a long lasting Ming state, you'd probably see a sea-faring, gun totin', modern military system guided by a regime interested in trade, modernization, and expansion - everything the Ching was not after they had conquered Tibet and Mongolia along with China. The Moghuls and Sikhs are a good example of folks who didn't update their war doctrine enough, but had very good troops and were on their way to modernizing their armies. I could explain the others, but I think the Moro resistance to the Spanish and Americans, and the Caste War of the Mayans speak for themselves.

It's not 'European' that made them powerful. It was 'adaptive' that made them great. China and India have had firearms for a LONG time. But eventually they were importing or copying European firearms. Why? They stagnated in their own technological evolution. Their rulers cared more for their large land-based countries and agriculture than sea-trade and dispersal of ideas. And many cultures were caught in a bad time, where-as the Europeans were at a peak. I don't blame the Europeans. Had the Chinese put their hearts to it, they could have conquered a lot of S.E. Asia, as well as Mongolia, Korea, Tibet, etc. But they never had a great incentive to (in their own eyes). Those who did not understand the need for evolution, may have been great warriors, but often could not face the better armed opponent. In-fact the Europeans faced MANY capable warriors in the peoples they conquered. Just for thought. Indian and Chinese histories from 0 to 1500 AD tell of a lot of conquest and supremacy. The stagnancy is a new thing for cultures that have been prosperous and progressive for a long time.

just goes to show, if you don't get up and do stuff, the world will pass you by... and maybe take your land and make you labor for them.

[katana]

I think KuKulzA28 comments on being 'adaptive' is very relevant. New colonies often meant new terrain and climatic differences.....something the locals were used to fighting in .....their martial traditions and tactics would have been 'moulded' by years of conflict.

One of the 'known' tactics employed by the colonialists would have been 'divide and rule'.....why directly fight the natives....when you could 'manipulate' tribes/factions/smaller kingdoms to fight each other.

I also believe that, naively, European invaders often under-estimated the indigenous people ....believing that they (Europeans) were superior in both technology and knowledge. Often a costly mistake ....Zulu springs to mind ...often after such defeats....the colonialists retaliation was often brutal, often increasing their army's numbers, and arms to ensure victory.....to save 'face' and 're-establish' their supremacy.

Another consideration is the fact that the indigenous people would generally fight more 'fiercly' .....afterall they were fighting for their homes, their people and their way of life. I think there is a quote somewhere which basically says something like 'one man that is fighting for a belief....is worth ten that have been paid to fight'


Regards David

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

I think KuKulzA28 comments on being 'adaptive' is very relevant. New colonies often meant new terrain and climatic differences.....something the locals were used to fighting in .....their martial traditions and tactics would have been 'moulded' by years of conflict.

One of the 'known' tactics employed by the colonialists would have been 'divide and rule'.....why directly fight the natives....when you could 'manipulate' tribes/factions/smaller kingdoms to fight each other.

I also believe that, naively, European invaders often under-estimated the indigenous people ....believing that they (Europeans) were superior in both technology and knowledge. Often a costly mistake ....Zulu springs to mind ...often after such defeats....the colonialists retaliation was often brutal, often increasing their army's numbers, and arms to ensure victory.....to save 'face' and 're-establish' their supremacy.

Another consideration is the fact that the indigenous people would generally fight more 'fiercly' .....afterall they were fighting for their homes, their people and their way of life. I think there is a quote somewhere which basically says something like 'one man that is fighting for a belief....is worth ten that have been paid to fight'


Regards David

Yes mate! Thats exactly what I was hoping to provoke a discussion of.
Not the Zulu wars in particular, but certainly the British empire was shown a few things during the wars in Nepal/Afghanistan and India.
I was hoping for of a discussion of how non-european weapons fared against a baseline of standardised european military equipment, and specific battles or wars where those lessons were taught and learned.

From our own UK POV clearly the Empire was extremely impressed with many 'ethnic' weapons, both in battle and in form.
From the adoption of Shamshirs as staff officers swords, the fact that the Sabre was adopted Europe wide as a standard Cavalry sword, to the Uks absorbtion of Ghurka regiments and allowing them to carry their own distinctive weapon.

[Gonzalo G]

And it is an interesting subject, indeed, Atlantia. You are not offending, I only wanted to be a little knotty with your asessment, as a friend. It seems that the destiny of societies is to conquer all the societies and terrritories which don´t belong to the same social grouping and territory. This open the possibility of creating great empires and cultures, and to unite progessively the world in a single humanity. Not bad if the local cultures and societies keep a space to survive with dignity meanwhile the adapt and developo trasitional links with a new order in a bigger and more rich context.

You all have bringed one important point: conquest and domination has been as a political enterprise, as a military one. Clausewitz said that the war was "the continuation of politics by other means". In other words, war is just another specific way to make politics. In the same line, the fights for the liberation of the subjugated colonies, has been also a political fight, and when they won, it has been more a political triumph than a military one.

Conquest is usually a very complex process, in which many times the characteristics of the conqueror´s weapons are not the only decisive element to explain the victory of the conqueror, but only when very unequal war technologies are used to fight, and the victims had not enough time to absorb the new weapons AND technologies of the conquerors. I belive this is the case with stone age peoples confronted by fireweapons. I don´t recall many battles in which the european conquerors were defeated, but there most be some few. Nepal also offered a good resistance to the english (in fact, they were never really conquered by the english), and I uderstand they defeated them in battle. I believe many of the weapons from the conquered peoples were a good ones, and many of their warriors fough valliantly. And those weapons are the ones which precisely bring us here in the sharing of this passion.
My regards

Gonzalo

[celtan]

Stone-age peoples vs modern firearms?

How about the jungle tribes in Borneo during WWII? I understand that Thompson and Nambu-toting companies virtually disappeared within the green, victims of the natives. I seem to recall one case in which Japanese and American soldiers actually assisted each other, in order to survive...

Also, if I recall correctly, an English Major demonstrated in late 18th C that bows and arrows were better weapons than the period flintlocks.

Once the novelty of black powder wore off, Spanish Conquistadores in America learned that their best weapon was not the cumbersome and unwieldy arcabuces and cannons, but rather their Toledo blades, horses and war dogs.


But even more important than that was Politics. The development of alliances with the different American nations, against the hated Aztecs and Incas...


On a side note:

There was a time when being fair and blonde was usually the characteristic of a slave. In fact, when Romans came to Spain, they often carried away the Celtic peoples from Galicia and Asturias as servants. Greeks, Persians and Turks did similarly within their respective spheres of influence.

Here is anothere example of the importance of Politics: The Romans were unable to militarily defeat the Celtic warrior tribes in the NW corner of the peninsula, so instead they bought the services of some of those tribes as mercenaries, using them to fight the others and as auxiliaries.

Some of these Celt mercenaries were actually sent to Britain, where they often challenged the local Celts in traditional single combat, to the amazement of the Romans.

Other interesting confrontations occurred between the Spanish and the 1. Japanese in Nagasaki, 2. a Thai rebel faction in Cambodia, 3. the Moros in Filipinas.


Manuel

[Gonzalo G]

That is correct, Manolo, but the conquest of the New Spain was not only circunscribed to Tenochtitlan and the meshica (the wrongly so-called "aztecs", by everbody including the actual mexicans), but ir was a long process which took much more time and battles, in the same mesure the spaniards and their indian allies (mainly tlaxcalan), advanced in all direction to colonize. The north was never completely conquered, as the coahuiteca, apache, kiowa, comanche, yaqui y otras yerbas were never subjugated by them. And the fireweapons were more useful in this process. But the spanish colonization was characterized always by the cross-breed of blood and culture with the indians since the beginning, and that was another political measure which gave them many adepts among the native population, and a very solid basis of military and political power.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by celtan

Stone-age peoples vs modern firearms?

How about the jungle tribes in Borneo during WWII? I understand that Thompson and Nambu-toting companies virtually disappeared within the green, victims of the natives. I seem to recall one case in which Japanese and American soldiers actually assisted each other, in order to survive...

Also, if I recall correctly, an English Major demonstrated in late 18th C that bows and arrows were better weapons than the period flintlocks.

Once the novelty of black powder wore off, Spanish Conquistadores in America learned that their best weapon was not the cumbersome and unwieldy arcabuces and cannons, but rather their Toledo blades, horses and war dogs.


But even more important than that was Politics. The development of alliances with the different American nations, against the hated Aztecs and Incas...


On a side note:

There was a time when being fair and blonde was usually the characteristic of a slave. In fact, when Romans came to Spain, they often carried away the Celtic peoples from Galicia and Asturias as servants. Greeks, Persians and Turks did similarly within their respective spheres of influence.

Here is anothere example of the importance of Politics: The Romans were unable to militarily defeat the Celtic warrior tribes in the NW corner of the peninsula, so instead they bought the services of some of those tribes as mercenaries, using them to fight the others and as auxiliaries.

Some of these Celt mercenaries were actually sent to Britain, where they often challenged the local Celts in traditional single combat, to the amazement of the Romans.

Other interesting confrontations occurred between the Spanish and the 1. Japanese in Nagasaki, 2. a Thai rebel faction in Cambodia, 3. the Moros in Filipinas.


Manuel

I often wondered how Spanish and Portugese steel fared against Samurai Katanas?

I remember an old chap I once knew who was in the military out in the far east in Borneo, Malaya, Burma and a few other places back in the 40s/50s telling a funny story of how they used to have to constantly patrol the railway lines because the local tirbesmen had found that they could make great edges weapons out of the large 'pins' holding the tracks down. Cant remember where it was though! lol

[KuKulzA28]

Can't remember where it was? It was everywhere!
Chinese tore up rail-roads to make Da-dao, africans to make machetes, etc. Spring steel is and was used by a LOT of people all over the world. Recycling is key!

I think a perfect defensive counter to foreign invasion is guerrilla warfare. That is one military doctrine that had amazing results against invaders with superior technology. At the very least you give 'em hell before they can take your land and your people. At most you bleed them dry and retake what was yours. It's almost a modernized form of tribal warfare. Small bands of soldiers infiltrating enemy territory to inflict casualties and/or take prisoners, and stealing back into the wilderness. I can think of plenty of parallels in the traditional style of warfare of many native americans, africans, and southeast asian peoples. While many Indian armies, the Zulus, and the Orientals often met the enemy in the field of battle, that is where the out-dated military doctrine and technology showed itself...

some examples of locals adopting the counter tactic (guerilla) would be...

Whenever the Mayans charged the Spaniards with their nobles and richly attired warriors... they almost always got defeated, despite a valiant battle. They knew that they couldn't afford to make the same mistakes as their neighbors and they sought to exterminate the invader... and yet, they failed. Of course, they were charging cavalry, war dogs, swordsmen, pikemen, firearms, and Mexican auxiliaries. But why did it take the Spaniards so long to conquer the Maya DESPITE modern military tech. and newer military management? Well, the Mayans were divided into many different tribes, chiefdoms, and kingdoms. Take out one, you still have a bunch to conquer. The Mayans traditionally fought a hit-and-run forest warfare, resorting to field combat only for the decisive battles. They knew their jungles and how to hunt their prey with ambushes and traps... and there were times when they came damn close to driving out the Spanish. Even today the area is unstable.

The Chinese in WW2 were under-equipped, not as well trained, and led by a less unified political entity. Yet, by controlling the countryside, maximizing firepower when able to, and using Da-dao troops to ambush Japanese supply lines at night, the Nationalists were able to wage a war against communists and Japanese, and pretty much beat the Japanese. The KMT gov't had to unite warlords and petty dictators, quell rebellions, suppress communists, and rally a nation. They also had to gain international support and produce weapons. They almost pulled it off. Now don't get me wrong, I greatly dislike the KMT and the way they massacred my ancestors, but then again I can say the same about the Communists - no one's good in war or peace. Point is, they adopted western military technology, and re-used old traditional weaponry for when it was best - in an "unconventional" hit-and-run ambush style of warfare.

We can get into Ho Chih Min and Vietnam, Philippines under Aguinaldo, the Chichamauga Cherokees, Manco Inca's resistance against the Spanish, Afghans against the USSR, the Germanic warriors at Teutoburgwald, etc.etc. You guys get the point.

but despite all the credit I am giving to these native people... we need to recognize that the Europeans usually prevailed, or was able to recruit locals to fight locals and find a favorable political situation. The Mayans are a marginalized large minority in a land ruled by the descendants of the Spaniards. The Chinese are now under a suffocatingly powerful Communist regime, and suffered the death of millions from the fall of the Ming, through the Taiping and Boxer rebellions and Opium Wars, and wars with modern powers... The Vietnamese have had a history of staunch defiance, and they succeeded, but at a terrible cost. The Philippines (and Moros) eventually came to accept and even prosper under American rule, though divisions and tensions are very strong even today. The Cherokees were eventually displaced, and Manco Inca was eventually defeated. The Afghani militants have been ;argely crushed in recent times or fled to Pakistan. The Germans did eventually conquer Rome, but it was not only due to arms - Rome was a declining empire. So yes, in recent times, the 'Western World' or its military capabilities kicked ass... and yes there was valiant resistance on the part of the conquerees, but could you expect any less?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

And it is an interesting subject, indeed, Atlantia. You are not offending, I only wanted to be a little knotty with your asessment, as a friend. It seems that the destiny of societies is to conquer all the societies and terrritories which don´t belong to the same social grouping and territory. This open the possibility of creating great empires and cultures, and to unite progessively the world in a single humanity. Not bad if the local cultures and societies keep a space to survive with dignity meanwhile the adapt and developo trasitional links with a new order in a bigger and more rich context.

You all have bringed one important point: conquest and domination has been as a political enterprise, as a military one. Clausewitz said that the war was "the continuation of politics by other means". In other words, war is just another specific way to make politics. In the same line, the fights for the liberation of the subjugated colonies, has been also a political fight, and when they won, it has been more a political triumph than a military one.

Conquest is usually a very complex process, in which many times the characteristics of the conqueror´s weapons are not the only decisive element to explain the victory of the conqueror, but only when very unequal war technologies are used to fight, and the victims had not enough time to absorb the new weapons AND technologies of the conquerors. I belive this is the case with stone age peoples confronted by fireweapons. I don´t recall many battles in which the european conquerors were defeated, but there most be some few. Nepal also offered a good resistance to the english (in fact, they were never really conquered by the english), and I uderstand they defeated them in battle. I believe many of the weapons from the conquered peoples were a good ones, and many of their warriors fough valliantly. And those weapons are the ones which precisely bring us here in the sharing of this passion.
My regards

Gonzalo

Thank you my friend, I would hate to have offended you.

The British in Nepal is a great example. I can't think of any specific engagements but certainly The Brits were hugely impressed with the bravery and quality of the Neapalese fighters.
I remember reading of one officers experience of the Khukri in battle. He noted how many of the fallen after a battle had been beheaded. Apparently the technique was an upwards stab into the guts causing the victim to double over, then pull it out and a single chop! eeek!!

The Ghurkas of the British army are a source of pride for the British people.
Of course for every genuine tale of Ghurka bravery, their legendary status means there are many more 'ltale tales' about them.
That they would collect earlobes from dead opponents (although I have heard that did go on a bit, and noses, against the Japanese in WW2), that during WW2 when on night manouvers they would tell British from German by creeping up and checking how boots were laced in the dark, that the Khukri would have to draw blood if drawn from its scabbard.

Apparently they did use a lot of 'terror tactics' against both the German and Japanese forces in WW2.
I've never read any accounts by German or Japanese soldiers of how they viewed the Ghurkas. The Japanese certainly had plenty of dealings with them on Burma.

Anyway, back to subject!

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thank you my friend, I would hate to have offended you.

On the contrary, Atlantia, I would hate to be wearisome. I apologize, because sometimes it seems that I writte in angry, but it is not so, even on the middle of a heavy discussion. I should use smiles to express better my feelings, as internet does not permit to see our mutual face expressions.
My regards

[Royston]

just goes to show, if you don't get up and do stuff, the world will pass you by... and maybe take your land and make you labor for them.[/QUOTE]


Kukulza28

Quite true, just look at what happened to the British Empire.

regards
Royston