Nice Indo Persian Axe

[Atlantia]

Hope your journey wasn't in vain mate.
Good luck

Gene

[Tim Simmons]

If the finial unscrews then you are sorted. I will bet {no money to cover my back} that it does not. Who decides which way is up or down? the collector? the maker? or the user? do all people from all places see the same? It will still function. It has been that way of some time. A quick clean and it will look great.

[katana]

Hi,
I 've been pondering the question of whether the axe head is upside down or not. I have come to several observations that may suggest that perhaps for some horsemen the 'inverted' axe head may be an advantage. If this was an axe used by a foot soldier, he would need all the advantages of the design to aid function and penetration, so without a doubt the head would be set the other way round. However a horseman wielding an axe would have a number of advantages....first of all the forward momentum of the horse travelling at , say 20 -25 mph ...if the horseman just held out the axe it would strike a foot soldier at the same speed ..... without any effort other than the 'effort' to hold the axe. It would be similar to an 3 to 4lbs of sharp steel flying through the air at 20 mph or so...not something I would want to be on the receiving end of. Secondly as the horseman is elevated above head level of the 'ground troops' the arc of the axe strike is longer and can therefore generate more power before it strikes its target (usually the head). Thinking along those lines ... the penetration of the blade edge would be deeper.....making retrieval more difficult for the horseman...perhaps to the extent that the rider may have to 'let go' the axe for fear of being pulled from his mount. If the axe head was fitted 'upside down' ...I think the retrieval of the axe might be easier.

Regards David

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi everyone I have the axe, I like it, it has alot of character.

Thanks for that thought provoking post Katana,

Hi Tim, I have to ask what is a finial?

I will clean it up and post pictures asap, but I can tell you that it does have traces of what looks like koftari

Regards

Bally

[Atlantia]

Fantastic Bally!
Well done mate I think you've got a blinder there.

Congratulations, I am quite jealous!

Gene

Here is a very similar one with the head the right way around:

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi Gene,

Its all thanks to you, you helpedmake my mind up,

Thanks for the picture too!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
I 've been pondering the question of whether the axe head is upside down or not. I have come to several observations that may suggest that perhaps for some horsemen the 'inverted' axe head may be an advantage. If this was an axe used by a foot soldier, he would need all the advantages of the design to aid function and penetration, so without a doubt the head would be set the other way round. However a horseman wielding an axe would have a number of advantages....first of all the forward momentum of the horse travelling at , say 20 -25 mph ...if the horseman just held out the axe it would strike a foot soldier at the same speed ..... without any effort other than the 'effort' to hold the axe. It would be similar to an 3 to 4lbs of sharp steel flying through the air at 20 mph or so...not something I would want to be on the receiving end of. Secondly as the horseman is elevated above head level of the 'ground troops' the arc of the axe strike is longer and can therefore generate more power before it strikes its target (usually the head). Thinking along those lines ... the penetration of the blade edge would be deeper.....making retrieval more difficult for the horseman...perhaps to the extent that the rider may have to 'let go' the axe for fear of being pulled from his mount. If the axe head was fitted 'upside down' ...I think the retrieval of the axe might be easier.

Regards David

Hi David,

I can sort of see where you're coming from there, and some 'axes' (weapons of that family) of course do have a cutting edge that has a forward leaning arc, but in my experience they have it in addition to the classic back leaning curve, effectively variations of the 'half moon or cresent shape. Even a uniform curved cutting edge where the apex of the curve is at 90 degrees to the handle. I cant think of any where the traditional 'attack' angle is completely absent?
Even the Zagnal (sp?) usually has a light inward angle on the blade, so does the Bairagi ( I know they are more 'war hammers' than axes but..)
The Bhuj occasionally has a flat main edge with a curved end, but more often is like a big downcurving bowie knife on a long handle so has the incurved blade like a clip pointed Khukhi.
I know the Indians loved eccentric weapons, I'm thinking of those axes with the 3/4 arc on the blade and an antelope head on the end with the horns being spikes (can't think of the name) but even on them the edge goes right round to the handle
Problem with this one is that its the standard 'saddle axe' shape exactly, but reversed.
If we can find a full metal one with the blade this way round, that would put it to bed?

*goes offf to check some books........*



Hmm, I'll have a look at google!

Bally,
this is interesting, have a look at those above, I wonder what yours will look like after a careful clean?

Thanks BTW, Indian weapons are my favourites, so I'm sincere in my enthusiasm (and envy) for this axe. I'm very glad I helped talk you into it, I think you got a bargain by the looks of it.

Gene

[Tim Simmons]

The finial is the knob on top of the axe. Rather like a big decorative rivet, holding the axe head to the steel strengthening bar and harft. This all hangs on wether it unscrews. I dare to say it does not and so the axe head is how it was always meant to be??? agian who of us has the authority to claim which way up the head should be? another unusual thing is that the head is set 45 degrees off the edge of the strengthening bar. I could see that as a better way to take flexing when stuck in a target travelling at speed? ouch

[kronckew]

needs a bit of oiling before any attempts to unscrew or pull out the finial - it may also be tapered and stuck in like a wedge to secure the head.. is it loose?

anyhow, good luck

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi David,

I can sort of see where you're coming from there, and some 'axes' (weapons of that family) of course do have a cutting edge that has a forward leaning arc, but in my experience they have it in addition to the classic back leaning curve, effectively variations of the 'half moon or cresent shape. Even a uniform curved cutting edge where the apex of the curve is at 90 degrees to the handle. I cant think of any where the traditional 'attack' angle is completely absent?
Even the Zagnal (sp?) usually has a light inward angle on the blade, so does the Bairagi ( I know they are more 'war hammers' than axes but..)
The Bhuj occasionally has a flat main edge with a curved end, but more often is like a big downcurving bowie knife on a long handle so has the incurved blade like a clip pointed Khukhi.
I know the Indians loved eccentric weapons, I'm thinking of those axes with the 3/4 arc on the blade and an antelope head on the end with the horns being spikes (can't think of the name) but even on them the edge goes right round to the handle
Problem with this one is that its the standard 'saddle axe' shape exactly, but reversed.
If we can find a full metal one with the blade this way round, that would put it to bed?

*goes offf to check some books........*



Hmm, I'll have a look at google!

Bally,
this is interesting, have a look at those above, I wonder what yours will look like after a careful clean?

Thanks BTW, Indian weapons are my favourites, so I'm sincere in my enthusiasm (and envy) for this axe. I'm very glad I helped talk you into it, I think you got a bargain by the looks of it.

Gene

Salaams ~ and Bump ! This post contains the important reference to Persian saddle axes by Anthony North from his illustrated Islamic Arms and Armour.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[ariel]

I join the crowd claiming wrong orientation of the head. The geometry of the blade is absolutely typical for a conventional setting.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I join the crowd claiming wrong orientation of the head. The geometry of the blade is absolutely typical for a conventional setting.

Salaams Ariel I bumped this thread to illustrate the reference but you are right it... the earlier axe on this thread.... is clearly the wrong way round... shukran
Ibrahiim al Balooshi..

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by katana

Secondly as the horseman is elevated above head level of the 'ground troops' the arc of the axe strike is longer and can therefore generate more power before it strikes its target (usually the head). Thinking along those lines ... the penetration of the blade edge would be deeper.....making retrieval more difficult for the horseman...perhaps to the extent that the rider may have to 'let go' the axe for fear of being pulled from his mount. If the axe head was fitted 'upside down' ...I think the retrieval of the axe might be easier.

It makes sense. The angles is which the blade can hit an infantryman, could explain this configuration, equivalent to the configuration of the last third of a very curved shamshir. Specially if the infantryman shrinks, bends or kneels to avoid the blade. That would point to a tabar for sure, if the hypothesis becomes true. There are too many references to this "backwards" mounted axe heads to be coincidence, as it seems. And maybe the "normal" ones were designed to be used on cavalry targets with armour. This point dreserves a research.
Regards

Gonzalo