Gun laws

[David]

Originally Posted by clockwork

We need to start it in the home by teaching kids respect and morals which are a thing of the past it seems. People do not have respect for there fellow man and that makes it easy to kill them. Plus the general society now days does not seemed to be fazed by such tragedy’s.

Well, it's hard to argue with this. Still, i am sure that the Christian minister in my news story thought he was teaching his kid respect and morals and that kid turned around and commited what is probably the worst crime possible, killing his own mother and attempting to kill his father. I don't think we can count on this method for an answer.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by David

Well, it's hard to argue with this. Still, i am sure that the Christian minister in my news story thought he was teaching his kid respect and morals and that kid turned around and commited what is probably the worst crime possible, killing his own mother and attempting to kill his father. I don't think we can count on this method for an answer.

Its so difficult isn't it David, as you say, even kids brought in a strong and traditional moral family enviroment are not immune to the ills of modern society. Its such a complex issue, there seem to be so many factors.

theres no doubt that kids need strong example based 'leadership' from the adults around them, but they need to be taught to care about the people around them and feel a genuine fellowship with them.

Sadly we bring kids up to think of people they dont know as a potential threat now.
Instead of having hope for a future filled with technological wonders, colonies on the moon, space exploration, an end to disease, etc (like we did when we were kids) they are living in a world terrified of one global catastrophe after another.
Where is the future we planned?

Look at the role models kids want to grow up to be like now!
When I was a Kid I wanted to be Captain Kirk or Neil Armstrong!
If you'd have asked me what career I wanted it would have been things like Policeman or astronaut or Doctor!
What do kids want now?
To be like 50 Cent, get instant fame on some reality TV show or at best be some overpaid sports star.

We completely idolise the wrong people in society, focusing on the arrogant and selfish who hardly make a valuable contribution to society while ignoring those who strive for the betterment of those around them. The media glamorises criminals, from gangster rappers to the Sopranos!
Our whole attitude has been skewed to the point where kindness is too often seen as some kind of weakness or even a subterfuge to hide an ulterior motive.

The mantra today seems to be 'I'm alright Jack' and 'Might is Right'.
I remember the days when some people still believed 'Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice'.

So we've got kids growing up, often in less than perfect environments, with no great dreams or ambitions for the future (in a world thats going down the tubes anyway) who are being constantly told by the TV (which lets face it is their main influence) that getting rich quick is the ultimate ambition and role models like 50 Cent.

And into that mix is introduced easily accessible guns!

I have sympathy for gun owners who don't misuse them..
Well, in honesty I would not shed a tear if people couldn't hunt anymore for lack of guns
But I think that there comes a point where regardless of the rights of people to own lethal weapons so long as they use them responsibly we have to realise that so many other parts of our society are f***ed that we need to protect people from themselves and each other until we can find a way to fix things.

Its strange how we are arguing over whether a 200 year old document can still be completely relevant today, when I hardly recognise the world we live in now compared to the one I grew up in in the 70s.


Regards
Gene

[celtan]

You all posit valid arguments, worth of considering.

All I know is that if I didn't carry, I wouldn't be here today, nor perhaps my better half.

I hate hurting people, the exception is when the alternative is to be the one hurting, and even then, its a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils.

And yet...

After the bullet has left the barrel, and the "bad" guy lies at your feet gasping and crying for his mother, then you realize the enormity of your actions, and the inevitability of the consequences.

That's when the situation has become irretrievable, when you realize you can't go back to the prior "state of innocence", a second after you have taken the irrevocable step.

Did the miscreant leave behind parents, a wife and children, now suddenly destitute? Could you have prevented the situation? Was it really necessary to have pulled your iron out?

You will have to carry that albatross for the rest of your life.

Again it's a matter of empathy, and few people still have it, mainly because it is no longer emphasized by either parents or society. Now, it's all Me, Me, Me!

Which also explains how even children today are often involved in violent crimes...

Homo Lupus Homini!

Manuel Luis Iravedra

[Matchlock]

Celtan,

I have tried to follow this thread as well as any German can who has got used to very strict gun laws.

I my eyes, you made the best point of all considering that very second after the bullet has left the iron. And empathy is something we really seem to have lost in our society. It is exactly as you put it: It's all Me, Me, Me now...

His 'mighty' brain has enabled man to rule over all other beings including his own species, everybody seems to think of himself as kind of a ruler - and that's exactly where the gun comes in. If man doesn't manage to go back to his soul and listen to human feelings such as empathy and respect, and if he does not hand them on to the young generation, he will not inherit the earth, he will destroy it - and himself. Life, after all, should not be about acting against each other but acting together, side by side.

Homo homini lupus ...

Michael

[Pukka Bundook]

Very well put, Celtan and Michael.

I believe respect is the basis for everything, and without it we can go nowhere.
This might be why countries like Switzerland and Finland, with gun-ownership as high as that of the 'States, have very low crime rates.

Clockwork,
I agree with just about every word you have written.
The problem I believe has some roots in parents abdicating their responsability at home, ...they're just not there, and the kids are out getting into all kinds of stuff.
Parents are meant to bring kids up, Not some government program, day-care or anything else.
If we rely on gov't to do Our job, we are on a down-hill slope.

I note that some of you boys here think it is OK to ban certain classes of firearms. I can only state the obvious,... look at the UK, stricktest laws it's ever had, and More crime than ever before. Even knives with blades over 4 inches are in the works now.

Believe it was Abraham Lincoln stated;

"....If we don't hang together, we'll All hang seperately!"....

Richard.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

look at the UK, stricktest laws it's ever had, and More crime than ever before. Even knives with blades over 4 inches are in the works now.


Richard.

The crime figures are actually a subject of some contention at the moment over here. It really depends on how you read them, but our rates of violent crime OVERALL is roughly steady or declining. Some areas have shown slight increases, and there in lies the contention as some of the rises have been attributed to better detection, recording and increased reporting, while other areas have shown a decrease. Anyway the UKs figures are a whole thread in themselves.

As for strict laws!
In the UK any blade over 3.5cm IS classed as an offensive weapon if carried without specific cause (such as a fisherman carrying a knife whilst actually fishing or travelling to or from that activity) intent does not have to be proved, possesion in public is an offence. While any blade or sharp CAN be classed as an offensive weapon under certain circumstances even if below the 3.5cm threshold if intent can be proved.

Virtually all knives are legal to own in the home. With a few exceptions.
Those are in the main knives with concealed baldes that can be opened with one hand (apart from simple folding penknives with a small catch on the blade which are not specifically designed to be opened with one hand) In other words, completely prohibited knives include: 'switch blades' Spring opening knives, gravity knives, butterfly knives.
The recent addition of any curved bladed, single edged 'sword' where the overall length is 18inches is still undergoing some revisions as the authorities realise just how unenforcable such a vague law is. Although they are still legal to own 'in the home'

Other banned weapons in the UK include:
Electrical stun guns
Self defence gas/CS spray/Mace
Spring opperated telescopic batons (I think)
Air weapons with a muzzle velocity of over 12ft/lbs
Brocock air cartridge system weapons
The list is endless!

[Pukka Bundook]

[QUOTE=Atlantia]The crime figures are actually a subject of some contention at the moment over here. It really depends on how you read them, but our rates of violent crime OVERALL is roughly steady or declining. Some areas have shown slight increases, and there in lies the contention as some of the rises have been attributed to better detection, recording and increased reporting, while other areas have shown a decrease. Anyway the UKs figures are a whole thread in themselves.

Hi Atlantia.

Thanks for bringing me up to date on how things stand in the UK.
I came to Canada in 1984, and have never been back.

I would like to question the crime rate being static or falling.
What I must ask, is;
Compared to when?
Over ten years, maybe so, but compared to the 60's, 70's or even early 80's it is Way out of control.

Where we lived in the industrial north, you could go anywhere safely, not lock your door, and not expect trouble. (In late 50's and 60s)
Now, in the Same area, (around Middlesbrough) It is plain not safe to be out on a night, and as for non-violent crime, the cops don't turn up if a vehicle is stolen, they just tell you to 'phone insurance.
The village of Normanby, close to the farm I grew up on, was a quiet little spot, Now, the cops if chasing a suspect, turn 'round and go home if they get to the town limit. If they follow, they are showered with bricks or whatever.
( we still have relatives over there)
A relative of mine was sitting on a wall outside his house in another village. (Same area)
Some punks came along, asked if he had any dope, ..told them to get lost, and as he got up, one kicked him and broke his nose.
He let the lad go, (did contemplate breaking his leg, as he had a hold of it & is a black belt.)
Went with his dad to see the police.

You know what he was asked by the police??
".....Why didn't you get a stick and smash his face in?" !!

Doesn't this show the level of frustration amongst the police force?

This relative's old man asked, " can we have a sniff around, see if we can find him?"
Police answer; " Yes, but if you get him, let us know, and we won't go looking for anybody"

Eegads! and I used to play and ride mi bike around there!

No respect for anything or anyone.

All I can say is, if half the population was packing heat, some of these punks would think again.

Footnote;
The guy that broke P's nose, later gate-crashed the chief superintendant's daughter's B.day party.
when she wouldn't let him in, he head-butted her and broke Her nose.
I think about that time, he was put on a hit list, or at least a "hurt" list.
They got him.
It was professionals.
Took out his cheek-bones, and mashed both hands.

I grieve for that country.

So again, compared to when is violent crime down?
I would love it to be down, but think that figures are being messed with, so the powers that be do not look so inept.

Best wishes,

Richard.