19th century fencing foils

[William V.]

Hello @ all

Sorry for not posting earlier... my job got the better of me

@Fernando:
The 5 indicates indeed the lenght of the weapon (normally "5" was 88 cm), the blade was forged in Solingen most probably by the Weyersberg company (before 1883). I suppose that the "Bedel" is the seller of the weapon and the word (as already said) "acier" meaning "steel", is a kind of proofmark that the metal is truly steel. The fact that "acier" is french for "steel" implies that Bedel is a french distributor (by chance I stumbled across 2 other weapons located in France with the same marking, which speaks for this hypothesis).
The "VjB" is probably the full name of the seller, the last letter standing for "Bedel".
The only thing irritating me is the strange king's head, he looks quite different to the original:
http://www.wkc-solingen.de/ueberuns/index.html

Do you mind posting a high-resolution picture of the head only?
Another interesting point is the question why a french distributor should sell german blades? They had Klingenthal and Chatterault around the corner

Regarding the other weapon:
Are there any other markings on the blade except the "ASolingen"?
The way I see it the "A" is the french for "at" Solingen. Indicating that the blade was forged at Solingen. This would show that the blade was for the foreign market.

@Broadaxe:

WOW
I knew the page of Mr Castanet but am truly amazed by the material he has there. Perhaps I should plan a short trip to Paris
Really nice pictures.

So far and all the best

William

[broadaxe]

The place of Mr. Castanet is not actualy in Paris but is very easy to get, about 20 minutes to the south riding the RER train. One should call for appointment.
As there is interest here are some more pics.

[Jim McDougall]

These are absolutely wonderful photos Broadaxe, and its like taking a trip to this completely captivating shop! It is the kind of magical place someone could spend many hours in wandering through, and admiring all the treasures. It reminds me of the antique weapons stores which existed once upon a time (before ebay) and as a youngster, my awe as I wandered through them.
* interesting old Masonic sword there with the skull and crossbones, and in seeing that with my younger eyes, I would have imagined it as a pirate captains trusty sword

Thank you William and Manuel for the input describing these markings and notes on the pieces shown.......I feel another notebook coming on !!! I have often thought of putting together information on fencing weapons, and here we have a great start.

Thank you guys!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for your input, Broadaxe, Manolo and William.
Yes William, i see your point about these foils having been imported from Germany to France, when the late had their own production. Mybe this was due to the ever famous Sollingen prestige?
By the way, despite being almost invisible in the pictures,k the letter S can be discerned inside the central section of the decoration efects; maybe this stands for Solingen?
You are right in that the King's head is rather different than the traditional one from Weyersberg. The Monarch in my example has a moustache and a beard ... quite intriguing. Would there be another German (or not) sword maker with a King's head mark ? There must be an explanation for this.

Concerning the other example i have posted, the only mark is indeed ASOLINGEN. I stress that the grip is precisely the same model, whereas the blade is slightly thinner.
Both these examples were acquired in the same place and at the same moment (in Portugal); so i would bet they surely belonged to the same owner.
Fernando

[William V.]

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help

William

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by William V.

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help

William

More excellent information William. I would never had known the 'A' might have meant that. The marketing and commercial acumen of Solingen was in a word, magnificent! This huge export machine overpowered locally made products even in Spain, and probably in many cases, France.

The use of spurious makers marks, popular wording etc. was well aligned for clients as well. The kings head was also used early by Johannes Wundes if my memory serves, and was a venerable mark by these times. It seems blades sometimes had numerous kings heads stamped in groupings, as many as four sometimes. In my thinking, this might have something to do with the numerous stamps used as hallmarks on silverwork, perhaps suggesting quality of that level? Just a thought for multiple stamps on regular blades.

There is so much historical data reflected in the curious markings and stamps we find on weapons, and that is why I hope to continue compiling more in these threads for future research. Using the search feature will reveal the most current data on these subjects.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi,
Like Fernando, I also wanted to post these two fencing foils, ( hope you don't mind) The first I believe to be French mid to late 19th C , blade marked ' C G ' with a crown above ...no idea as to the meaning .The blade tip is sharply pointed and sinisterly ...judging by the rust pitting this 'point' was made a long time ago. Used for duelling ?? ...... I have no idea ...would anyone know if this was common modification.

The second I think is possibly older.....lots of micro pitting to the guard and blade. The wooden handle has a carved chequered pattern which has bee heavily 'rubbed' from extensive use No discernable marks but may have lost them due to rust/pitting.

All comments gratefully received....thank you

Regards David