Kindi on swords and iron

ariel · 24th November 2008, 02:31 AM

"Also to be noted, is that modern scholars who have access to muslim sources in several languajes, rarely traslate them, so they remain as a de facto monopoly of the scarce reesearchers interested on this subjects. We need more occidental arabian-iranian-indian speakers interested in the traslation, publication and study of this texts."
I agree, but there is such an appalling scarcity of academic endeavours there! Perhaps, there are some local texts for the "internal market", but even Pant's mammoth 3-volume set relies heavily on ... Rawson! At least in the weapon volume~50% of all illustrations are from the Rawson's book. Iran is even worse: the first attempt to properly catalogue swords in Teheran was made by the Russian Romanovski; he died soon thereafter and no attempt was made by the local museum keepers, university staff or anyone else to continue the work. They had to wait until Manouchehr Khorasani came from Germany to teach them and to publish a book. Arab countries.... The Saudi exhibition ( the "Islamic Weapons" catalogue) is acoffee table book and is the only one before the Furussiyya Foundation book.
What would we do without Elgood, Gorelik, Astvatsaturyan, Nicolle etc?
The only true research in the area is going in Europe ( including Russia).

Gonzalo G · 24th November 2008, 10:07 AM

There is so much talent wasted. To be a good researcher on this area, you need passion, talent, money, time and knowledge. Beign a collector helps a lot. I believe there is such passion, talent and knowledge in some of the forumites, but not enough of the other factors. Things are more complicated when you need to access difficult sources, written in oriental medieval languajes.

Accessing primary sources has it´s own problem. Sometimes you need special academic credentials to get permissions, or to have some nationality. In Mexico some archivists in the national historic documentation centers, monopolize certain documents, because they want to be the only researchers on certain areas of their interest, but the worst thing is the fact that they do not have any formal education in history, they only are chroniclers who stack facts and anecdotes. It is just a way of making money with an "academic" aura, tough we have also some good historian. And researching on the military archives to make a study about the history of the mexican sabers, for example, is just impossible, as NOBODY can access military archives in Mexico, historical or not, but the members of the military caste, who will never do that kind of work, nor have the education to. Those archives are always "reserved" or "confidential".

Historical research has many prosaic problems, apart from those derived of the inner nature of this work, depending of the type of research, country, etc. I can imagine what facilities would be given to an USA scholar in Iran or Syria, for example, trying to make a research on a subject in which those countries ultimately have some national image interests, even if the subject is related to arms, armour or archaeometallurgy. Making a cientifically neutral rsearch on history matters has some problems, as history traditionally has been manipulated and biased.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th November 2008, 05:44 PM

Gonzalo, I can follow you a long way of the stony road called amateur research. There are, however a few lights on the road, one is stubbornness, and another is enthusiasm – and both counts, when it comes to research, Besides, I know several amateur collectors, with a bigger special knowledge than many museum people. However most museum people cover a very big area, while the amateurs mostly work within a very narrow area.

The key questions to the rest you mention is a network, as big as possible, with the masks a small as possible, and to specialist amateurs. If you can build up such a network you are a well down the road – although there will still be far to walk.

24th November 2008, 02:31 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"Also to be noted, is that modern scholars who have access to muslim sources in several languajes, rarely traslate them, so they remain as a de facto monopoly of the scarce reesearchers interested on this subjects. We need more occidental arabian-iranian-indian speakers interested in the traslation, publication and study of this texts." I agree, but there is such an appalling scarcity of academic endeavours there! Perhaps, there are some local texts for the "internal market", but even Pant's mammoth 3-volume set relies heavily on ... Rawson! At least in the weapon volume~50% of all illustrations are from the Rawson's book. Iran is even worse: the first attempt to properly catalogue swords in Teheran was made by the Russian Romanovski; he died soon thereafter and no attempt was made by the local museum keepers, university staff or anyone else to continue the work. They had to wait until Manouchehr Khorasani came from Germany to teach them and to publish a book. Arab countries.... The Saudi exhibition ( the "Islamic Weapons" catalogue) is acoffee table book and is the only one before the Furussiyya Foundation book. What would we do without Elgood, Gorelik, Astvatsaturyan, Nicolle etc? The only true research in the area is going in Europe ( including Russia).

24th November 2008, 10:07 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	There is so much talent wasted. To be a good researcher on this area, you need passion, talent, money, time and knowledge. Beign a collector helps a lot. I believe there is such passion, talent and knowledge in some of the forumites, but not enough of the other factors. Things are more complicated when you need to access difficult sources, written in oriental medieval languajes. Accessing primary sources has it´s own problem. Sometimes you need special academic credentials to get permissions, or to have some nationality. In Mexico some archivists in the national historic documentation centers, monopolize certain documents, because they want to be the only researchers on certain areas of their interest, but the worst thing is the fact that they do not have any formal education in history, they only are chroniclers who stack facts and anecdotes. It is just a way of making money with an "academic" aura, tough we have also some good historian. And researching on the military archives to make a study about the history of the mexican sabers, for example, is just impossible, as NOBODY can access military archives in Mexico, historical or not, but the members of the military caste, who will never do that kind of work, nor have the education to. Those archives are always "reserved" or "confidential". Historical research has many prosaic problems, apart from those derived of the inner nature of this work, depending of the type of research, country, etc. I can imagine what facilities would be given to an USA scholar in Iran or Syria, for example, trying to make a research on a subject in which those countries ultimately have some national image interests, even if the subject is related to arms, armour or archaeometallurgy. Making a cientifically neutral rsearch on history matters has some problems, as history traditionally has been manipulated and biased.

30th November 2008, 05:44 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonzalo, I can follow you a long way of the stony road called amateur research. There are, however a few lights on the road, one is stubbornness, and another is enthusiasm – and both counts, when it comes to research, Besides, I know several amateur collectors, with a bigger special knowledge than many museum people. However most museum people cover a very big area, while the amateurs mostly work within a very narrow area. The key questions to the rest you mention is a network, as big as possible, with the masks a small as possible, and to specialist amateurs. If you can build up such a network you are a well down the road – although there will still be far to walk.