Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

Mark · 12th April 2005, 11:39 PM

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:

Quote:

Lung Som is 57 now and a 4th generation sword maker. He pretty much owns the entire village there in Aranyik but he still gets his hands dirty on a regular basis. As a young man he was given a royal commission and when he presented the sword to the king, the king gave him a mandate to keep traditional sword making alive in Thailand. He has made several swords for the royal family and has the pictures to prove it throughout his shop.

So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

Rivkin · 14th April 2005, 05:17 PM

I'm sorry for being a little bit overly pessimistic about ship modeling - I'm sure it's alive, just like sword making in America is also quite alive. And most likely the needed for personal interaction with a master/good marketing will prevent complete outsourcing of this and sword making industries.

However the market share did move and does move drastically from individually hand made items to the semi-mass produced ones, leaving very few in the business.

Concerning the anti-sword attitudes - I believe the sheer number of "samurai swords" sold every year is enough to recreate Sekigahara. Under every tree you can find a sensei teaching secrets of ninjutsu.

Does it transform into buying traditionally made swords ? Hell no.
At best it goes to Paul Chen and his cuties.

The reasons in my opinion are as follows:
a. There is no need for expensive real thing when something mass produced cuts (not exactly as well as the real thing).
b. With a mass produced thing you get a sword stand, cool dragon on your tsuka, and the certificate that tells you that this is a Masamune's sword.
c. Modern traditionally made swords are very often worse in quality than similarly priced antique swords.

In short, we are all going Kubachi's road - bad blades in all silver scabbards.

Rick · 14th April 2005, 05:53 PM

Oh I agree Rivkin , the average consumer cannot afford the masterpieces so they settle for something that looks good at an affordable price .
I think though that this is nothing new in the art and craft world .

It has always been the wealthy patron that has kept the best of anything alive be it food , art , yachts or automobiles .

I'm not sure if I am drifting away from Antonio's original question here ,(probably am

)

Battara · 14th April 2005, 06:09 PM

But Rick, I think you have a point (besides the one on your head

). It has been wealthy patrons who commissioned works of weapory art, most being court nobility. In today's world, outside of government, it will be the same like it is with custom knife making here in the US (as had been previously mentioned).

Rick · 14th April 2005, 06:22 PM

I think the Chinese government has many bigger and more important fish to fry at this point in their existence .

I also remember that this culture once had great fleets of treasure ships and then abruptly ended the venture .
Didn't they also invent the clock and then abandon its use at one point in history ?

I would not be surprised that when they get their ducks more in a row that they will turn more and more to encouraging traditional artisans .

VANDOO · 14th April 2005, 06:57 PM

DURING THE PERIOD OF COMMUNIST TAKEOVER AFTER THE NATIONALISTS WERE DEFEATED IN CHINA, ALL THINGS TRADITIONAL WERE FROWNED UPON BY THE RED GAURD. MANY EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE AND MANY THINGS DESTROYED IN ORDER TO ENFORCE THE NEW ORDER OF THE LITTLE RED BOOK. TODAY CHINA IS INTERESTED IN BUILDING WEALTH AND GAINING POWER, MILITARY AND OTHERWISE TO AQUIRE MORE TERRITORY. THEY ARE OUT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE POWER IN THE WORLD AND HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND DETERMINATION TO DO SO. BUYING UP RAW MATERIALS AND USING THEIR LARGE AND INEXPENSIVE WORKING CLASS TO PRODUCE CRAFTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND UNDERSELLING EVERYONE ELSE IS HELPING TO BUILD THIS WEALTH/ POWERBASE. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING AS LONG AS THEIR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT TRY TO USE FORCE TO TAKE WHAT THEY WANT AND IMPROVES THE LIVES OF THEIR PEOPLE. HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE WEALTH COULD BE USED TO KEEP TRADITIONAL CRAFTS GOING UP TO THEIR PAST AND CURRENT QUALITY.

ONE SURE WAY TO PRESERVE THE TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND KNOWLEGE WOULD BE TO FIND THE MASTERS AND FILM ALL THEIR TECKNIQUES AND SECRETS. A FILM AND A BOOK OF THEIR INSTRUCTIONS AND TECKNIQUE STEP BY STEP WOULD AT LEAST GIVE A FUTURE CRAFTSMAN INFORMATION TO START WITH. THIS WOULD BE IMPOSIBLE IN MANY INSTANCES AS THE MASTERS WOULD NOT BE WILLING TO SHARE ALL THEIR SECRETS. LEARNING FROM THE MASTER DIRECTLY AS AN APPRENTENCE IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN FROM BOOKS OR FILMS AS HE IS THERE TO CORRECT YOUR MISTAKES AND GIVE YOU ADVICE. SOMETIMES THE OLD WAYS ARE BEST

Antonio Cejunior · 14th April 2005, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:

So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

Thanks for the link Mark

If you didn't revive it, I wouldn't ever be able to view it.

Lung Som may have the commercial side to support his other artistic lines.
But the fact was that my own reaction when I was there was that I found the bowies to be too expensive and ended up feeling a bit awkward for not seeing only dhas. I could understand the commercial part, but I don't know, I wasn't convinced. But maybe I'm too picky.

In was wondering how are those swords that Dan ordered. Not long ago, Dan still mentioned he had not received anything.

This is the part that can scare away customers, for Asia is known to usually be very fast at doing things.

Cheers

Antonio Cejunior · 17th August 2005, 11:35 AM

Dear All,

I hope I am not committing a sin here, but based on this post I have started a thread about Bladesmiths: what future today and tomorrow
I thought that many of you gentlemen could provide a further input.

Dear Moderators, I'm in no way trying to fish anyone from this wonderful forum, but really hoping to see more inputs. However if you feel I am breaking any rule, please kindly delete this post.

Thank you

Rick · 17th August 2005, 03:06 PM

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

Antonio Cejunior · 17th August 2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

Thanks Rick,

It is a new pond

Battara · 18th August 2005, 06:51 AM

Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around.

Antonio Cejunior · 18th August 2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around.

Most welcome.
I just didn't want anone to think I'm fishin'

17th August 2005, 11:35 AM	#8
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	A variation of the topic. The future of bladesmiths Dear All, I hope I am not committing a sin here, but based on this post I have started a thread about Bladesmiths: what future today and tomorrow I thought that many of you gentlemen could provide a further input. Dear Moderators, I'm in no way trying to fish anyone from this wonderful forum, but really hoping to see more inputs. However if you feel I am breaking any rule, please kindly delete this post. Thank you

14th April 2005, 05:17 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm sorry for being a little bit overly pessimistic about ship modeling - I'm sure it's alive, just like sword making in America is also quite alive. And most likely the needed for personal interaction with a master/good marketing will prevent complete outsourcing of this and sword making industries. However the market share did move and does move drastically from individually hand made items to the semi-mass produced ones, leaving very few in the business. Concerning the anti-sword attitudes - I believe the sheer number of "samurai swords" sold every year is enough to recreate Sekigahara. Under every tree you can find a sensei teaching secrets of ninjutsu. Does it transform into buying traditionally made swords ? Hell no. At best it goes to Paul Chen and his cuties. The reasons in my opinion are as follows: a. There is no need for expensive real thing when something mass produced cuts (not exactly as well as the real thing). b. With a mass produced thing you get a sword stand, cool dragon on your tsuka, and the certificate that tells you that this is a Masamune's sword. c. Modern traditionally made swords are very often worse in quality than similarly priced antique swords. In short, we are all going Kubachi's road - bad blades in all silver scabbards.

14th April 2005, 05:53 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Oh I agree Rivkin , the average consumer cannot afford the masterpieces so they settle for something that looks good at an affordable price . I think though that this is nothing new in the art and craft world . It has always been the wealthy patron that has kept the best of anything alive be it food , art , yachts or automobiles . I'm not sure if I am drifting away from Antonio's original question here ,(probably am )

14th April 2005, 06:09 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	But Rick, I think you have a point (besides the one on your head ). It has been wealthy patrons who commissioned works of weapory art, most being court nobility. In today's world, outside of government, it will be the same like it is with custom knife making here in the US (as had been previously mentioned).

14th April 2005, 06:22 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I think the Chinese government has many bigger and more important fish to fry at this point in their existence . I also remember that this culture once had great fleets of treasure ships and then abruptly ended the venture . Didn't they also invent the clock and then abandon its use at one point in history ? I would not be surprised that when they get their ducks more in a row that they will turn more and more to encouraging traditional artisans .

14th April 2005, 06:57 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DURING THE PERIOD OF COMMUNIST TAKEOVER AFTER THE NATIONALISTS WERE DEFEATED IN CHINA, ALL THINGS TRADITIONAL WERE FROWNED UPON BY THE RED GAURD. MANY EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE AND MANY THINGS DESTROYED IN ORDER TO ENFORCE THE NEW ORDER OF THE LITTLE RED BOOK. TODAY CHINA IS INTERESTED IN BUILDING WEALTH AND GAINING POWER, MILITARY AND OTHERWISE TO AQUIRE MORE TERRITORY. THEY ARE OUT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE POWER IN THE WORLD AND HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND DETERMINATION TO DO SO. BUYING UP RAW MATERIALS AND USING THEIR LARGE AND INEXPENSIVE WORKING CLASS TO PRODUCE CRAFTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND UNDERSELLING EVERYONE ELSE IS HELPING TO BUILD THIS WEALTH/ POWERBASE. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING AS LONG AS THEIR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT TRY TO USE FORCE TO TAKE WHAT THEY WANT AND IMPROVES THE LIVES OF THEIR PEOPLE. HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE WEALTH COULD BE USED TO KEEP TRADITIONAL CRAFTS GOING UP TO THEIR PAST AND CURRENT QUALITY. ONE SURE WAY TO PRESERVE THE TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND KNOWLEGE WOULD BE TO FIND THE MASTERS AND FILM ALL THEIR TECKNIQUES AND SECRETS. A FILM AND A BOOK OF THEIR INSTRUCTIONS AND TECKNIQUE STEP BY STEP WOULD AT LEAST GIVE A FUTURE CRAFTSMAN INFORMATION TO START WITH. THIS WOULD BE IMPOSIBLE IN MANY INSTANCES AS THE MASTERS WOULD NOT BE WILLING TO SHARE ALL THEIR SECRETS. LEARNING FROM THE MASTER DIRECTLY AS AN APPRENTENCE IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN FROM BOOKS OR FILMS AS HE IS THERE TO CORRECT YOUR MISTAKES AND GIVE YOU ADVICE. SOMETIMES THE OLD WAYS ARE BEST

17th August 2005, 03:06 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

18th August 2005, 06:51 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around.