Kindi on swords and iron

ariel · 19th November 2008, 10:54 PM

What is interesting to me, is the open statement of al-Kindi that wootz was coming to Persia from India.
We are accustomed to the statements about wootz being a genuinely Iranian invention, that Indian masters learned their craft only late (16-17th centuries) etc, etc. In fact, the noun wootz is always preceeded by an adjective Persian, implying the purely Iranian origin: from the beginning to the end. The contribution of Indian metallurgists is not even glossed over; it is buried in silence. Al-Kindi's book is cited very frequently, but the passage cited here is usually conveniently omitted.
In fact, what we learn from here and from Indian sources
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm
is that wootz was manufactured in India and that Iranians just bought the output en masse and re-sold it elsewhere. No doubt, Iranians achieved the highest levels of proficiency in manufacturing blades from Indian wootz, but the honor of inventing and manufacturing wootz should rightly belong to India.

Gonzalo G · 20th November 2008, 08:36 PM

I agree, India and probably Central Asia. Though, there are latter sources on the manofacture of wootz. I can´t still put my hands on books like Persian Steel and Persian Metal Technology. Jens is decades ahead of me on this readings. But I think we cannot be conclusive about iranian wootz production, and archaeometallurgy is still in it´s beginnings. I still do not read Manouchehr´s book..too expensive for me, taking on account the caravan post services EUA-México additional cost.

Jens, thank you very much for your input.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2008, 04:50 PM

Somewhere I read that the ingots could have different forms and sizes - up to two kg, but most seem to be roundish, although some of these are not ingots, but 'balls' use to smash the ore.

Gonzalo G · 21st November 2008, 10:39 PM

Even a little heavier, and egg shaped, from the for of the crucible. Enough to make a sword.

ariel · 22nd November 2008, 04:54 AM

As per that article
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm
the average weight of an ingot was 2.3 kg. The ones I saw advertised for sale ( Artzi's site and other) were 300-800g.
Khorasani wrote that less than 300 g of iron was put into the crucibles and did not mention any variability. Anosov made ingots as heavy as 5 kg, but recommended not to exceed 3-4 kg limit, as it compromised the quality.
So, if the blade of a shamshir weighed ~600-800 g, and assuming even a 50% loss, a 3 kg ingot was sufficient for 2 blades. Of course, smaller ingots were used for kards, khanjars etc.
The article I cited above indicates that tens of thousands of ingots were shipped annually from the Coromandel coast ( only one source of origin !) to Persia.
It should have been enough to produce all the blades manufactured in Iran and still leave plenty for re-sale. Thus, there was no impetus for the Iranians to develop their own metallurgy. This also explains the sudden cessation of wootz blade manufacture in Iran as soon as the British killed the wootz industry in India.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd November 2008, 04:30 PM

Yes Ariel, it is fascinating reading, and the amount of ingots exported to other places in India, Persia, Arabian Peninsula, Egypt, Rome and other places – not to speak about the places whey sold some of them to, must have been very, very big. Like you say, enough to make swords for hole armies, and the export went on for centuries. However, we must not forget, that when an army had lost a battle, the winner took all the arms and emptied the armouries, if possible, and brought it all home, either to enter their own armoury or to be changed into weapon types, which suited them better, so the looser would have a very big need for ‘new’ ingots to arm their soldiers.

Another thing, which I also find fascinating, is, that to keep up en export of spices, fine cotton textiles, metal ware and a lot of other things, they would have needed very big ships, and the knowledge of navigating. It is known that the first compasses used by them, was a hollow fish made of magnetic iron swimming on oil, but it takes a lot more than that to sail for days when you cant see land. No doubt the first sailors sailed close to the coast, but it must have taken a long time, and not seventy days as someone describes it at one point, when he was on a boat with a lot of horses for export to India.

Gonzalo G · 23rd November 2008, 11:23 PM

On the other side, wootz was not used only to produce weapons. And also, the archaeological discoveries in Central Asia had shown that there were other wootz centers of production, not mentioned by the old known written sources (at least, the sources known by occidentals), which makes me wonder about the limits of the antique sources taken individually. It must be pointed Gilmour references the strange fact that, being Al-Biruni a native of the southeast Central Asia Area, he did not mention Khorasan area as a center of production of wootz. I think the only ultimate source of knowledge grounded in solid facts about this point, is archaeology.

Also to be noted, is that modern scholars who have access to muslim sources in several languajes, rarely traslate them, so they remain as a de facto monopoly of the scarce reesearchers interested on this subjects. We need more occidental arabian-iranian-indian speakers interested in the traslation, publication and study of this texts.

23rd November 2008, 11:23 PM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	On the other side, wootz was not used only to produce weapons. And also, the archaeological discoveries in Central Asia had shown that there were other wootz centers of production, not mentioned by the old known written sources (at least, the sources known by occidentals), which makes me wonder about the limits of the antique sources taken individually. It must be pointed Gilmour references the strange fact that, being Al-Biruni a native of the southeast Central Asia Area, he did not mention Khorasan area as a center of production of wootz. I think the only ultimate source of knowledge grounded in solid facts about this point, is archaeology. Also to be noted, is that modern scholars who have access to muslim sources in several languajes, rarely traslate them, so they remain as a de facto monopoly of the scarce reesearchers interested on this subjects. We need more occidental arabian-iranian-indian speakers interested in the traslation, publication and study of this texts. Last edited by Gonzalo G; 24th November 2008 at 02:56 AM.

19th November 2008, 10:54 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is interesting to me, is the open statement of al-Kindi that wootz was coming to Persia from India. We are accustomed to the statements about wootz being a genuinely Iranian invention, that Indian masters learned their craft only late (16-17th centuries) etc, etc. In fact, the noun wootz is always preceeded by an adjective Persian, implying the purely Iranian origin: from the beginning to the end. The contribution of Indian metallurgists is not even glossed over; it is buried in silence. Al-Kindi's book is cited very frequently, but the passage cited here is usually conveniently omitted. In fact, what we learn from here and from Indian sources http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm is that wootz was manufactured in India and that Iranians just bought the output en masse and re-sold it elsewhere. No doubt, Iranians achieved the highest levels of proficiency in manufacturing blades from Indian wootz, but the honor of inventing and manufacturing wootz should rightly belong to India.

20th November 2008, 08:36 PM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I agree, India and probably Central Asia. Though, there are latter sources on the manofacture of wootz. I can´t still put my hands on books like Persian Steel and Persian Metal Technology. Jens is decades ahead of me on this readings. But I think we cannot be conclusive about iranian wootz production, and archaeometallurgy is still in it´s beginnings. I still do not read Manouchehr´s book..too expensive for me, taking on account the caravan post services EUA-México additional cost. Jens, thank you very much for your input.

21st November 2008, 04:50 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Somewhere I read that the ingots could have different forms and sizes - up to two kg, but most seem to be roundish, although some of these are not ingots, but 'balls' use to smash the ore.

21st November 2008, 10:39 PM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Even a little heavier, and egg shaped, from the for of the crucible. Enough to make a sword.

22nd November 2008, 04:54 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per that article http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm the average weight of an ingot was 2.3 kg. The ones I saw advertised for sale ( Artzi's site and other) were 300-800g. Khorasani wrote that less than 300 g of iron was put into the crucibles and did not mention any variability. Anosov made ingots as heavy as 5 kg, but recommended not to exceed 3-4 kg limit, as it compromised the quality. So, if the blade of a shamshir weighed ~600-800 g, and assuming even a 50% loss, a 3 kg ingot was sufficient for 2 blades. Of course, smaller ingots were used for kards, khanjars etc. The article I cited above indicates that tens of thousands of ingots were shipped annually from the Coromandel coast ( only one source of origin !) to Persia. It should have been enough to produce all the blades manufactured in Iran and still leave plenty for re-sale. Thus, there was no impetus for the Iranians to develop their own metallurgy. This also explains the sudden cessation of wootz blade manufacture in Iran as soon as the British killed the wootz industry in India.

22nd November 2008, 04:30 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Ariel, it is fascinating reading, and the amount of ingots exported to other places in India, Persia, Arabian Peninsula, Egypt, Rome and other places – not to speak about the places whey sold some of them to, must have been very, very big. Like you say, enough to make swords for hole armies, and the export went on for centuries. However, we must not forget, that when an army had lost a battle, the winner took all the arms and emptied the armouries, if possible, and brought it all home, either to enter their own armoury or to be changed into weapon types, which suited them better, so the looser would have a very big need for ‘new’ ingots to arm their soldiers. Another thing, which I also find fascinating, is, that to keep up en export of spices, fine cotton textiles, metal ware and a lot of other things, they would have needed very big ships, and the knowledge of navigating. It is known that the first compasses used by them, was a hollow fish made of magnetic iron swimming on oil, but it takes a lot more than that to sail for days when you cant see land. No doubt the first sailors sailed close to the coast, but it must have taken a long time, and not seventy days as someone describes it at one point, when he was on a boat with a lot of horses for export to India.