Kindi on swords and iron

Gonzalo G · 19th November 2008, 05:21 AM

Jens, that point of the location of the city interests me. I have a document from M. H. Panhwar which states that: "Capital of Sindh was shifted from Alore to Mansura Yazid Ali Kalbi. Archaeological evidence so far collected shows that Brahmanabad and Mansura are two names of same city." Could it be another Mansura? Also, "The Arabs did not destroy Brahmanabad and therefore it should have survived side by side. Arab travelers Ibn Haukal and Istakhri who visited in 951 AD have said in Sindhi, Mansura is called Brahmanabad, (Bamiwan, which is close to Babanwa or Brahman, Bamra or
Banbhriya) showing thereby that the town had retained its earlier name among the local populance, but Arabs called Mansura." I don´t have more information, so if you can, please give me more references to check. I have many black holes in this area.
Regards

Gonzalo

Jens Nordlunde · 19th November 2008, 01:19 PM

Gonzalo, I have tried to Google, and there seem to be quite a number of places called Mansura. I don’t know anything more than I have told you so far, as it all comes from the book I quoted, but I have a map showing a town called Mansura. If it is this town, I doubt very much that it is a ruin town any more.

ariel · 19th November 2008, 11:54 PM

What is interesting to me, is the open statement of al-Kindi that wootz was coming to Persia from India.
We are accustomed to the statements about wootz being a genuinely Iranian invention, that Indian masters learned their craft only late (16-17th centuries) etc, etc. In fact, the noun wootz is always preceeded by an adjective Persian, implying the purely Iranian origin: from the beginning to the end. The contribution of Indian metallurgists is not even glossed over; it is buried in silence. Al-Kindi's book is cited very frequently, but the passage cited here is usually conveniently omitted.
In fact, what we learn from here and from Indian sources
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm
is that wootz was manufactured in India and that Iranians just bought the output en masse and re-sold it elsewhere. No doubt, Iranians achieved the highest levels of proficiency in manufacturing blades from Indian wootz, but the honor of inventing and manufacturing wootz should rightly belong to India.

Gonzalo G · 20th November 2008, 09:36 PM

I agree, India and probably Central Asia. Though, there are latter sources on the manofacture of wootz. I can´t still put my hands on books like Persian Steel and Persian Metal Technology. Jens is decades ahead of me on this readings. But I think we cannot be conclusive about iranian wootz production, and archaeometallurgy is still in it´s beginnings. I still do not read Manouchehr´s book..too expensive for me, taking on account the caravan post services EUA-México additional cost.

Jens, thank you very much for your input.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2008, 05:50 PM

Somewhere I read that the ingots could have different forms and sizes - up to two kg, but most seem to be roundish, although some of these are not ingots, but 'balls' use to smash the ore.

Gonzalo G · 21st November 2008, 11:39 PM

Even a little heavier, and egg shaped, from the for of the crucible. Enough to make a sword.

ariel · 22nd November 2008, 05:54 AM

As per that article
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm
the average weight of an ingot was 2.3 kg. The ones I saw advertised for sale ( Artzi's site and other) were 300-800g.
Khorasani wrote that less than 300 g of iron was put into the crucibles and did not mention any variability. Anosov made ingots as heavy as 5 kg, but recommended not to exceed 3-4 kg limit, as it compromised the quality.
So, if the blade of a shamshir weighed ~600-800 g, and assuming even a 50% loss, a 3 kg ingot was sufficient for 2 blades. Of course, smaller ingots were used for kards, khanjars etc.
The article I cited above indicates that tens of thousands of ingots were shipped annually from the Coromandel coast ( only one source of origin !) to Persia.
It should have been enough to produce all the blades manufactured in Iran and still leave plenty for re-sale. Thus, there was no impetus for the Iranians to develop their own metallurgy. This also explains the sudden cessation of wootz blade manufacture in Iran as soon as the British killed the wootz industry in India.

19th November 2008, 01:19 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonzalo, I have tried to Google, and there seem to be quite a number of places called Mansura. I don’t know anything more than I have told you so far, as it all comes from the book I quoted, but I have a map showing a town called Mansura. If it is this town, I doubt very much that it is a ruin town any more. Attached Images

19th November 2008, 05:21 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jens, that point of the location of the city interests me. I have a document from M. H. Panhwar which states that: "Capital of Sindh was shifted from Alore to Mansura Yazid Ali Kalbi. Archaeological evidence so far collected shows that Brahmanabad and Mansura are two names of same city." Could it be another Mansura? Also, "The Arabs did not destroy Brahmanabad and therefore it should have survived side by side. Arab travelers Ibn Haukal and Istakhri who visited in 951 AD have said in Sindhi, Mansura is called Brahmanabad, (Bamiwan, which is close to Babanwa or Brahman, Bamra or Banbhriya) showing thereby that the town had retained its earlier name among the local populance, but Arabs called Mansura." I don´t have more information, so if you can, please give me more references to check. I have many black holes in this area. Regards Gonzalo

19th November 2008, 11:54 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is interesting to me, is the open statement of al-Kindi that wootz was coming to Persia from India. We are accustomed to the statements about wootz being a genuinely Iranian invention, that Indian masters learned their craft only late (16-17th centuries) etc, etc. In fact, the noun wootz is always preceeded by an adjective Persian, implying the purely Iranian origin: from the beginning to the end. The contribution of Indian metallurgists is not even glossed over; it is buried in silence. Al-Kindi's book is cited very frequently, but the passage cited here is usually conveniently omitted. In fact, what we learn from here and from Indian sources http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm is that wootz was manufactured in India and that Iranians just bought the output en masse and re-sold it elsewhere. No doubt, Iranians achieved the highest levels of proficiency in manufacturing blades from Indian wootz, but the honor of inventing and manufacturing wootz should rightly belong to India.

20th November 2008, 09:36 PM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I agree, India and probably Central Asia. Though, there are latter sources on the manofacture of wootz. I can´t still put my hands on books like Persian Steel and Persian Metal Technology. Jens is decades ahead of me on this readings. But I think we cannot be conclusive about iranian wootz production, and archaeometallurgy is still in it´s beginnings. I still do not read Manouchehr´s book..too expensive for me, taking on account the caravan post services EUA-México additional cost. Jens, thank you very much for your input.

21st November 2008, 05:50 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Somewhere I read that the ingots could have different forms and sizes - up to two kg, but most seem to be roundish, although some of these are not ingots, but 'balls' use to smash the ore.

21st November 2008, 11:39 PM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Even a little heavier, and egg shaped, from the for of the crucible. Enough to make a sword.

22nd November 2008, 05:54 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per that article http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm the average weight of an ingot was 2.3 kg. The ones I saw advertised for sale ( Artzi's site and other) were 300-800g. Khorasani wrote that less than 300 g of iron was put into the crucibles and did not mention any variability. Anosov made ingots as heavy as 5 kg, but recommended not to exceed 3-4 kg limit, as it compromised the quality. So, if the blade of a shamshir weighed ~600-800 g, and assuming even a 50% loss, a 3 kg ingot was sufficient for 2 blades. Of course, smaller ingots were used for kards, khanjars etc. The article I cited above indicates that tens of thousands of ingots were shipped annually from the Coromandel coast ( only one source of origin !) to Persia. It should have been enough to produce all the blades manufactured in Iran and still leave plenty for re-sale. Thus, there was no impetus for the Iranians to develop their own metallurgy. This also explains the sudden cessation of wootz blade manufacture in Iran as soon as the British killed the wootz industry in India.