Some late Gothic daggers

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Thank you, Sir,

I will obey to the rules.

Michael

No problems Michael, and thank you for your most courteous response to the concerns expressed by David on whether this was an auction or not. It does seem unusual that these items catalogued are shown with a price range, which led to the assumption this was an auction .

It is clear that your posting of these items was intended for scholarly study purposes rather than commercial, so I would consider that within fair use perameters, and these included the cite for the photo owner.

David, thanks for your input, and for your reiteration on the forum rules. I agree it would be better to avoid posting items out of catalogs currently for sale, however it does seem suggested in the rules that fair use does permit this as long as properly cited, if I understand correctly. In the thread here, these were posted in the context presented for the purpose of scholarly discussion, not a sale thread, in which case they would have gone to the swap forum. I could not find, as Ed noted, anything specifically prohibiting catalog items, only live auction items.
I think that is where the confusion lies.

[stekemest]

I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.

[celtan]

Guys,

Nobody is wrong here. It behooves us to keep things in perspective. We are here to learn, and I haven't seen anyone pushing items for sale so far. I guess that as long as we don't discuss prices, value, or push to sell an item, it's quite clear that we are only benefitting knowledge-wise.

Stekemest's (BTW, Interesting nom-de-guerre: Master of the stake, master of the steak? : ) ) posting is quite valuable for this purpose, as are those of Matchlock, Gonzalo, Fernan , Jim et al...


Manolo

[David]

Originally Posted by stekemest

I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.

Stekemest, i am not sure why you are so upset by the discussion of forum rules. The rules exist for a reason and i believe i raised a legitimate comcern in regards to the Finer site and live auctions. I also believe those concerns have been settled and folks are back to talking about the daggers. Why would you want your posts deleted and your contribution to this discussion erased?

[Matchlock]

Hi, Jim,

Thank you for your good lines - they should really mend fences and be the final word on the subject.
Our forum ought to be inspired by a sense of community, after all.

With my very best wishes,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by stekemest

I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.

Hi Stekemest,
You're absolutely right, I'd rather keep those unfortunate elements of public interaction out of what was (and still is) a very nicely coursed discussion. I am completely with you on the observations you have made concerning the subtle decorative motif and styling of weapons as related to art.....most well said, and I hope you will stay with your thoughts on this and continue.

I also noticed that circle around the dot, and it is interesting to see how widely applied that symbol is used. I have seen it across North Africa, which indeed reflects considerable influence from Balkans, Europe and Central Asia. It is consistantly seen on many Afghan weapons, such as lohar and I have seen it on the handles of Buzkashi whips. It occurs in India, and is said to reflect extremely ancient symbolism.
Stylistically it is typically thought of as a solar symbol I believe.

In reading your comments, I began looking through sources that I had seen with very pertinant perspective that I think echoes what you have said.
In "Imperial Austria: Treasure of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria" , an exhibition catalog from Fine Arts Museum in Houston, 1992, it is noted that Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber, authors of "Studies in Armor", "...convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

I would expand that to include, tendancies of regions and cultures as well, and the weapons reflect influences that correspond often to the introduction of elements of style or motif of other cultures.

The study of arms and armour history is emphatically also about the study of art, architecture, religion, tradition, superstition, and many other cultural studies. It is unfortunate that often many museums fall short in viewing arms and armour in these perspectives.

Thank you for your views, and I have added my own in hopes that the discussion will continue.

With all very best regards,
Jim