Really Good kindjals - where are they ?

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 03:07 PM

I have not seen any kindjal with real damasus blade. If anyone has please post it here. I have seen some etched damasus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

This is not quite true. After the fall of Soviet Union a lot of great Caucasian weapons exported to western market. But this is over I think. Maybe a reverse route has started.

Also there is a real factory of fakes on. Somewhere in Georgia as far as I can tell.

My kindjals are here

ariel · 11th December 2004, 04:15 PM

What I meant by "tourist pieces" is that the kindjals produced at the end of the 19th-beginning of 20th century were not meant for fighting anymore: the nature of warfare has changed. They were part of the uniform (Cossack units or ethnic units such as the mainly Chechen "Wild Division" of the Tsarist military) and were often viewed as an impediment rather than weaponry ( see B.E. Frolov "Oruzhiye Kubanskikh Kasakov", ie "Weapons of the Kuban Cossacks"). They were also a part of the national dress of Caucasian nations and as such, were worn mainly for ceremonial functions and they were also made as souvenirs and artistic objects (many still have the inscription "KABKA3"). Nothing bad or dishonorable about it, but they were just no longer real weapons meant for battle. Just as AK-47 obliterated the need in Kaskaras and Shamshirs, Mosin-Nagant rifle made the Caucasian kindjals obsolete....
Still, the memory of their real function was still fresh at that time and the quality of work was truly superb. In cotrast, after so many years of neglect and virtual ban on the manufacture of any weaponry in the former USSR the new pieces mass produced in Georgia these days have no meaning at all and, in my opinion, do not even qualify as collector pieces. Just look at their blades and vomit!

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 04:51 PM

Well, I have dozen or so kindjals with a real damascus pattern - turkish star night, burly pattern etc. Scabbards are very inexpensive, but the blades are the real beauty, through I strongly suspect 25% of them can be etchings, but others - it's physically impossible to etch starry damascus.

Getting them was tough, and involved in most cases personal contacts. I hope to post some pictures soon.

Lee · 11th December 2004, 05:21 PM

Does anyone know where would this be from?

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 05:45 PM

Damn it. Here we are posing as experience collectors, and Mr.Jones comes with his dagger that is surely a better one.

It's from Dagestan, made most likely by Lak master, can be that master worked outside of Dagestan, but it's unlikely. The date I would guess 1860 and may be a little bit up.

P.S. Sorry for the direct question, but where did you get it ? It seems to be a VERY good piece.

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 05:46 PM

Yet again, as in my experience - the hilt and scabbard are usually simplistic.

Jeff D · 11th December 2004, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Yet again, as in my experience - the hilt and scabbard are usually simplistic.

Can someone refresh my memory? I thought I read that the weapons with plain wood hilts were considered tools and not taxed or taken by the Russians / Ottoman, while the ornate hilts where considered weapons instead of tools and were. I can't for the life of me remember where (or even if i read this).

Thanks
Jeff

11th December 2004, 05:21 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Pattern-Welded Qama or Kindjal? Does anyone know where would this be from?

11th December 2004, 04:15 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What I meant by "tourist pieces" is that the kindjals produced at the end of the 19th-beginning of 20th century were not meant for fighting anymore: the nature of warfare has changed. They were part of the uniform (Cossack units or ethnic units such as the mainly Chechen "Wild Division" of the Tsarist military) and were often viewed as an impediment rather than weaponry ( see B.E. Frolov "Oruzhiye Kubanskikh Kasakov", ie "Weapons of the Kuban Cossacks"). They were also a part of the national dress of Caucasian nations and as such, were worn mainly for ceremonial functions and they were also made as souvenirs and artistic objects (many still have the inscription "KABKA3"). Nothing bad or dishonorable about it, but they were just no longer real weapons meant for battle. Just as AK-47 obliterated the need in Kaskaras and Shamshirs, Mosin-Nagant rifle made the Caucasian kindjals obsolete.... Still, the memory of their real function was still fresh at that time and the quality of work was truly superb. In cotrast, after so many years of neglect and virtual ban on the manufacture of any weaponry in the former USSR the new pieces mass produced in Georgia these days have no meaning at all and, in my opinion, do not even qualify as collector pieces. Just look at their blades and vomit!

11th December 2004, 04:51 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I have dozen or so kindjals with a real damascus pattern - turkish star night, burly pattern etc. Scabbards are very inexpensive, but the blades are the real beauty, through I strongly suspect 25% of them can be etchings, but others - it's physically impossible to etch starry damascus. Getting them was tough, and involved in most cases personal contacts. I hope to post some pictures soon.

11th December 2004, 05:45 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Damn it. Here we are posing as experience collectors, and Mr.Jones comes with his dagger that is surely a better one. It's from Dagestan, made most likely by Lak master, can be that master worked outside of Dagestan, but it's unlikely. The date I would guess 1860 and may be a little bit up. P.S. Sorry for the direct question, but where did you get it ? It seems to be a VERY good piece.

11th December 2004, 05:46 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Yet again, as in my experience - the hilt and scabbard are usually simplistic.