Moro Kris: what did I buy?

[ariel]

Thanks for the reply, but I want to learn more.
The handle is a replacement, no doubt, so it is not an evidence.
I always thought that the gangya/blade joint was the most important indicator of the age. The really old ones ( 18th cen) had almost straight line, relatively old ones ( late 19th to mid 20th) were noticeably angled, and new models had a one-piece construction ( with or without a scratched imitation of the joint). I also remember a discussion here that the very old ones might have had a one-piece construction, too. Based on that, mine must be old, if it is a Moro.
Does the same rule apply to non-Moro swords?
Are there any other good indicators of age?
Could you spell for me what exact features would differentiate a large/heavy Indonesian kris from a light and shortish Moro one? I cannot see the tang and even x-ray is not going to help here. I do not wish to break the handle.
Don't get me wrong: I am not disputing your conclusion, I just want to learn.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

I always thought that the gangya/blade joint was the most important indicator of the age. The really old ones ( 18th cen) had almost straight line, relatively old ones ( late 19th to mid 20th) were noticeably angled, and new models had a one-piece construction ( with or without a scratched imitation of the joint). I also remember a discussion here that the very old ones might have had a one-piece construction, too. Based on that, mine must be old, if it is a Moro.

From what i can see the line on yours is NOT straight, but takes a 45 degree angle in the tail. This would place it in the 19th to 20th C category based on this particular indicator. This is certainly far too recent to be any kind of transition piece. Frankly i am not so sure this is the best rule of thumb even with Moro blades, but i think it applies even less with a non-Moro keris such as this one.

Originally Posted by ariel

Does the same rule apply to non-Moro swords?

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by ariel

Are there any other good indicators of age?
Could you spell for me what exact features would differentiate a large/heavy Indonesian kris from a light and shortish Moro one? I cannot see the tang and even x-ray is not going to help here. I do not wish to break the handle.

Why won't x-ray help? And how is the hilt attached? Often heating the blade will loosen a hilt without damage.
For me what really speaks to this not being Moro is the manner in which the sekar kacang or "elephant trunk" is formed. The whole gandik area of this sword just does not have the care and detail that i expect to see in a Moro sword, even one of lesser quality. All i can suggest to you Ariel is that you look at a whole lot of photos of kris identified as Moro and then look at this one. The cross-section looks wrong as well, though that might just be the photos. But it reminds me of the way some Bugis keris are formed with a high middle section that falls away quickly at the edges. This might be of Indonesian origin or it might be Lumad or some other group trying to copy a Moro style kris, but IMHO it is not Moro.
You should take some detailed photos of your own to give us a better look.

[kai]

Hello David,

For me what really speaks to this not being Moro is the manner in which the sekar kacang or "elephant trunk" is formed.

Ariel has a point though that this feature is similarly plain as in the archaic style piece #161 from the HOS catalog. Despite some flaws in the latter blade, general workmanship is still much more detailed than in Ariel's kris (considering effects of wear for both pieces to be fair).

All i can suggest to you Ariel is that you look at a whole lot of photos of kris identified as Moro and then look at this one.

The more fancy ones won't help as a comparision - the fairly simple ones (regardless of age) are few and far in between. Will try to look for some pics...

You should take some detailed photos of your own to give us a better look.

Yeah, I second the request for more pics of this piece. An etch will also reveal more forging details which will help evaluation.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Ariel,

I always thought that the gangya/blade joint was the most important indicator of the age. The really old ones ( 18th cen) had almost straight line, relatively old ones ( late 19th to mid 20th) were noticeably angled, and new models had a one-piece construction ( with or without a scratched imitation of the joint).

There are quite a few archaic ones with angled separation line which would be more typical for 19th c. examples; there also seem to be a few later examples with almost straight separation line. The late 19th to early 20th c. kris usually have a very pronounced/longish angle. There are indications that pieces with separate gangya have been continued to be produced, especially in the Sulu archipelago. Nowadays, I see quite a few new but artificially aged pieces with separate gangya coming out of Mindanao again...

Does the same rule apply to non-Moro swords?

No. Malay (and even modern repros by the Madura guys) seem to have been almost always been done with separate gangya.

Are there any other good indicators of age?

Hilts and grip binding can help (if original); blade size and form, too. Workmanship may also help; telling old pieces of low quality from decent 20th c. examples may pose problems though...

Could you spell for me what exact features would differentiate a large/heavy Indonesian kris from a light and shortish Moro one?

The Indonesian/Malay keris (i.e. the dagger type in its many incarnations) is not a problem; the (ethnically) Malay keris sundang (sword or large dagger) can be tough to tell apart from Moro kris though: no hard and fast rules apply - there have been several discussions touching on this issue if you turn on the search engine (Moro + Malay/Sumatra/Borneo).

I cannot see the tang and even x-ray is not going to help here. I do not wish to break the handle.

Repeatedly heating the blade with a candle and letting it cool down again will eventually loosen up any blade not glued with epoxy nor other modern glues... Try once or twice a day and just gently "tweak" the hilt when the blade is hot (if you don't apply excessive force, the hilt will be fine).

Regards,
Kai

[Robert]

Something else that I have found that sometimes works well to remove grips that are fixed with pitch is extreme cold. You might try putting this in your deep freeze (if you have one) overnight and see if the grip comes loose. Hope this helps.

Robert

[Lew]

I use a hair dryer aim it at base of the blade it may take a while but it worked for me. I am posting the pics so we don't loose them.

[Rick]

A couple of observations , I think this blade is really old (the pitting); it also looks like it hasn't seen very much if any warangan .

It looks also as if it were made by a smith of average talent; the village smith perhaps ?


Things to think about .....