Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

Valjhun · 9th November 2008, 08:12 PM

Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

M ELEY · 9th November 2008, 10:51 PM

Hmmm...a variation of the flamberge-style blade. One of the questions might be, what procession would have used a flamberge pattern. I know next to nothing about that style blade, like was it used by any particular order? Infantry vs cavalry, etc. Also, could it be a fraternal sword? Again, not my area. Still, an interesting piece...

Rick · 9th November 2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

Conga line ?

fearn · 10th November 2008, 12:12 AM

I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece.

F

Atlantia · 10th November 2008, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece.

F

That was my impression too. form not function. A nice vicky wall hanger. Very pretty, but 'flamboyant' to the point of eccentricity, and for the money you could get a real rapier.
I've often wondered if any of these 'flamboyant' or in this case I guess more 'serpentine' blades were actually owned by men who expected to use them in anger?
I'd be relieved if I was forced to fight a chap who then drew one of these unweildy things. You would truly have to be Cyrano to make one of these as effective as a straight blade.

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2008, 03:18 AM

I think you guys really have a bead on this one, and I'm in full accord!
This very attractive piece I agree seems to be more decorative and symbolic than actually combative, although discussions in the past have insisted that these flammard blades actually have more cutting surface and could have actually seen combat. I'm not sure I concur, but as for this one, it is designed in the swept hilt rapier fashion on 16th century, and clearly a neoclassic interpretation, with the rapier a thrusting weapon, not cutting.

The 'flammard', or flame blade (often mistakenly called 'flamberge' from the sword of the fictional knight of 8thc France Renaud de Montauban, with that term meaning flamboyant) seems to correspond considerably to the Biblical flaming sword guarding the gates of Paradise (Genesis 3:24) and "...turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life".
This reference is from "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" (A.Mackay,R.Clegg & H.Haywood, 1946, p.359).

The ironwork of the hilt, with pierced crosses very much those of Knights of Christ type as seen on early Portuguese sword hilt elements, seems of late 18th century, possibly earlier slightly. The pineapple pommel is extremely interesting, and not seen on period rapiers in any references I have seen, though it seems more like a smallsword element. The pineapple was a popular symbol of friendship, hospitality and quite possibly extended into brotherhood? In the 18th century,it was used considerably in French rococo and neoclassic material culture.

With these considerations, I am inclined toward a fraternal piece, most likely Freemason, and of 18th century, probably Continental. The Freemason reference cited also noted that until recent times, the Tylers sword (that held to guard the entrance to the lodge) was the 'flaming sword'.

I have seen other extremely unusual swords, one with a full skull and crossbones and broadsword blade (the skull and crossbones profoundly Masonic symbolism ) which was likely one of these extremely symbolic bearing weapons.

Personally I think these are really kind of exciting pieces, and awaken the mystery and romantic imagination!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Conga line ?

LOL!!!!JUDL!! Ya kill me Rick!!!!

Rick · 10th November 2008, 10:33 PM

The interesting thing about this blade is that it is actually bent back and forth (like a keris blade) during the forging process .
No stock removal here .

The blade really reminds me of the waking Naga form of Java* .
*see below .

It must have been very demanding work to make the waves even in size, keep it from twisting on the anvil, and to finally have it come out flat .

Kudos to the Smith .

10th November 2008, 10:33 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	The interesting thing about this blade is that it is actually bent back and forth (like a keris blade) during the forging process . No stock removal here . The blade really reminds me of the waking Naga form of Java* . see below . It must have been very demanding work to make the waves even in size, keep it from twisting on the anvil, and to finally have it come out flat . Kudos to the Smith . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 10th November 2008 at 10:58 PM.*

9th November 2008, 08:12 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

9th November 2008, 10:51 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hmmm...a variation of the flamberge-style blade. One of the questions might be, what procession would have used a flamberge pattern. I know next to nothing about that style blade, like was it used by any particular order? Infantry vs cavalry, etc. Also, could it be a fraternal sword? Again, not my area. Still, an interesting piece...

10th November 2008, 12:12 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece. F

10th November 2008, 03:18 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,592	I think you guys really have a bead on this one, and I'm in full accord! This very attractive piece I agree seems to be more decorative and symbolic than actually combative, although discussions in the past have insisted that these flammard blades actually have more cutting surface and could have actually seen combat. I'm not sure I concur, but as for this one, it is designed in the swept hilt rapier fashion on 16th century, and clearly a neoclassic interpretation, with the rapier a thrusting weapon, not cutting. The 'flammard', or flame blade (often mistakenly called 'flamberge' from the sword of the fictional knight of 8thc France Renaud de Montauban, with that term meaning flamboyant) seems to correspond considerably to the Biblical flaming sword guarding the gates of Paradise (Genesis 3:24) and "...turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life". This reference is from "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" (A.Mackay,R.Clegg & H.Haywood, 1946, p.359). The ironwork of the hilt, with pierced crosses very much those of Knights of Christ type as seen on early Portuguese sword hilt elements, seems of late 18th century, possibly earlier slightly. The pineapple pommel is extremely interesting, and not seen on period rapiers in any references I have seen, though it seems more like a smallsword element. The pineapple was a popular symbol of friendship, hospitality and quite possibly extended into brotherhood? In the 18th century,it was used considerably in French rococo and neoclassic material culture. With these considerations, I am inclined toward a fraternal piece, most likely Freemason, and of 18th century, probably Continental. The Freemason reference cited also noted that until recent times, the Tylers sword (that held to guard the entrance to the lodge) was the 'flaming sword'. I have seen other extremely unusual swords, one with a full skull and crossbones and broadsword blade (the skull and crossbones profoundly Masonic symbolism ) which was likely one of these extremely symbolic bearing weapons. Personally I think these are really kind of exciting pieces, and awaken the mystery and romantic imagination! All best regards, Jim