More Chinese stuff

Chris Evans · 7th November 2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks for popping into the other posting Chris, it gave me the memory bump I needed to post the answer to you questions.

The total weight in the scabbard for both dao is 2.25kgs.
Each sabre weighs 950 grams.

thanks

Gav

Hi Gavin,

Much obliged.

Cheers
Chris

KuKulzA28 · 5th January 2011, 04:23 AM

Having a big fascination for Chinese dao and shuang dao I thought I'd resurrect this thread with questions...

Do they tend to be as long/heavy as many normal dao?
In my mind, it seems if they were a bit shorter than average and a bit lighter than average, they'd be easier to whirl around and kill... Also a shorter dao would be faster to draw. But then again I'm sure, like most weapons of the time, sizes varied quite a bit.

I have seen very few examples of shuang dao online, and all of them ox-tails... but how common were Goose-quills and Willow-leaves in the double bladed style?

Thanks!

Neil · 5th January 2011, 04:34 PM

I am certainly not discounting others thoughts on their use, but they would make for a fine and beguiling street performance tool as well.

josh stout · 7th January 2011, 07:34 PM

I love double weapons and have been thinking about these questions for a while. Full size shuang jian are extremely rare, while full size shuang dao are only slightly more common. The examples of these that I have seen are all late 19th c. or later. Earlier examples of both jian and dao tend to have had blades around 20 inches or shorter and frequently show signs of substantial use. These older examples tend not to be in as good condition. I have a book of woodblock prints showing Ming period soldiers using various kinds of siege towers that shows a substantial proportion using two willow-leaf shaped swords. There are several woodblock prints showing these types of soldiers, but they are the only examples I have seen. Usually double weapons are a sign that the user did not belong to the regular army. The woodblocks are interesting to note for their very specific depictions. The soldiers with two swords were part of groups, preparing to clear defenders from walls. I suspect that in regular massed combat, double swords could have been too dangerous for ones own side. They seem particularly good for wading into masses and having at it, rather than being part of a mass fighting another mass.

Also it has been noted that there would have been a considerable surprise element for a double weapon wielder. This would make sense for a caravan guard or someone working for a security firm, but no one would run screaming if they were calmly looking out over an apposing army and one of them suddenly produced two swords. As further evidence of the lack of the need for surprises of this sort when part of a large army, it can be seen in the wood block examples that the swords have full round guards. Thus they were much more likely to be simply a matched set rather than true shuang dao. Surprise was not the issue, clearing the wall was the issue.

Unfortunately, matched sets of willow leaf or other dao have probably all been split up and might not be recognized even if they did exist. I saw a matched set of training dao once that was split up because it was not understood that the swords might belong together. I do have two sets of sword breakers that are sets, but not designed to fit in a single sheath. I bet there used to be more sets of different kinds of weapons that are now split.
Josh

KuKulzA28 · 23rd March 2011, 02:02 PM

Wow, thanks for the information Josh, I didn't know that! The difference between civilian and military paired swords as evidenced by the guards is a very good observation...

Perhaps those specially skilled double-saber troops of the Ming era were hired mercenaries? Or perhaps specially trained troops? I was always under the impression that double blades were more of a skill that civilian martial artists occasionally were taught and trained and that the government's military generally did not have that as part of their training.

I wonder, when did double blades begin getting longer - and why? Shorter blades are easier to draw and better in tighter spaces. Was there a change in metallurgy, military "fashion"/preferences, or contemporary fighting???

josh stout · 23rd March 2011, 07:12 PM

The full size double weapons I have seen tend to be very late and of lower quality steel than the earlier ones that show signs of substantial use.

It looks like the beginning of the 20th c. and the very end of the Qing is the deviding line.

Gavin just let a set of older full size ones go that would be the exception to this rule.

Josh

KuKulzA28 · 24th March 2011, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

The full size double weapons I have seen tend to be very late and of lower quality steel than the earlier ones that show signs of substantial use.

It looks like the beginning of the 20th c. and the very end of the Qing is the deviding line.

Would that be because of them no longer being primary fighting weapons, or because of a decline in swordsmithing skills, or a decline in skilled martial arts practitioners... or all of the above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

Gavin just let a set of older full size ones go that would be the exception to this rule.

The set shown at the top of this thread or another one... ?

Mercenary · 5th April 2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

I am certainly not discounting others thoughts on their use, but they would make for a fine and beguiling street performance tool as well.

I agree. My dao most likely for street performance

KuKulzA28 · 6th April 2011, 04:08 PM

It is a very nice looking set of dao though... what give it away as a street performance tool? The lower quality steel? No hardened edge? Different heft and balance?

Mercenary · 6th April 2011, 08:00 PM

Heft and balance are very nice specially for street performance.

About hardened edge I don't know because the blade is covered by a patina (film, covering - sorry, I don't know as it correctly in English). The steel is not the most bad, but also not the watered steel.
There is no sensation of the real fighting weapon. And there are too much photos of street jugglers and there are not enough certificates of using the pair weapon in army.

Gavin Nugent · 6th April 2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

It is a very nice looking set of dao though... what give it away as a street performance tool? The lower quality steel? No hardened edge? Different heft and balance?

I am sure you'll find these very well balanced.
At face value also with a good hardened edge, of typical strength and steel for the type....nothing a good clean wouldn't reveal.
Nice pair, do you have a scabbard?

Mercenary · 6th April 2011, 09:44 PM

Unfortunately, I haven't a scabbard. The handle was plaited again, but the cord is Chinese old.

5th January 2011, 04:34 PM	#3
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	I am certainly not discounting others thoughts on their use, but they would make for a fine and beguiling street performance tool as well. Attached Images

5th January 2011, 04:23 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Having a big fascination for Chinese dao and shuang dao I thought I'd resurrect this thread with questions... Do they tend to be as long/heavy as many normal dao? In my mind, it seems if they were a bit shorter than average and a bit lighter than average, they'd be easier to whirl around and kill... Also a shorter dao would be faster to draw. But then again I'm sure, like most weapons of the time, sizes varied quite a bit. I have seen very few examples of shuang dao online, and all of them ox-tails... but how common were Goose-quills and Willow-leaves in the double bladed style? Thanks!

7th January 2011, 07:34 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I love double weapons and have been thinking about these questions for a while. Full size shuang jian are extremely rare, while full size shuang dao are only slightly more common. The examples of these that I have seen are all late 19th c. or later. Earlier examples of both jian and dao tend to have had blades around 20 inches or shorter and frequently show signs of substantial use. These older examples tend not to be in as good condition. I have a book of woodblock prints showing Ming period soldiers using various kinds of siege towers that shows a substantial proportion using two willow-leaf shaped swords. There are several woodblock prints showing these types of soldiers, but they are the only examples I have seen. Usually double weapons are a sign that the user did not belong to the regular army. The woodblocks are interesting to note for their very specific depictions. The soldiers with two swords were part of groups, preparing to clear defenders from walls. I suspect that in regular massed combat, double swords could have been too dangerous for ones own side. They seem particularly good for wading into masses and having at it, rather than being part of a mass fighting another mass. Also it has been noted that there would have been a considerable surprise element for a double weapon wielder. This would make sense for a caravan guard or someone working for a security firm, but no one would run screaming if they were calmly looking out over an apposing army and one of them suddenly produced two swords. As further evidence of the lack of the need for surprises of this sort when part of a large army, it can be seen in the wood block examples that the swords have full round guards. Thus they were much more likely to be simply a matched set rather than true shuang dao. Surprise was not the issue, clearing the wall was the issue. Unfortunately, matched sets of willow leaf or other dao have probably all been split up and might not be recognized even if they did exist. I saw a matched set of training dao once that was split up because it was not understood that the swords might belong together. I do have two sets of sword breakers that are sets, but not designed to fit in a single sheath. I bet there used to be more sets of different kinds of weapons that are now split. Josh

23rd March 2011, 02:02 PM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Wow, thanks for the information Josh, I didn't know that! The difference between civilian and military paired swords as evidenced by the guards is a very good observation... Perhaps those specially skilled double-saber troops of the Ming era were hired mercenaries? Or perhaps specially trained troops? I was always under the impression that double blades were more of a skill that civilian martial artists occasionally were taught and trained and that the government's military generally did not have that as part of their training. I wonder, when did double blades begin getting longer - and why? Shorter blades are easier to draw and better in tighter spaces. Was there a change in metallurgy, military "fashion"/preferences, or contemporary fighting???

23rd March 2011, 07:12 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The full size double weapons I have seen tend to be very late and of lower quality steel than the earlier ones that show signs of substantial use. It looks like the beginning of the 20th c. and the very end of the Qing is the deviding line. Gavin just let a set of older full size ones go that would be the exception to this rule. Josh

6th April 2011, 04:08 PM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	It is a very nice looking set of dao though... what give it away as a street performance tool? The lower quality steel? No hardened edge? Different heft and balance?

6th April 2011, 08:00 PM	#10
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Heft and balance are very nice specially for street performance. About hardened edge I don't know because the blade is covered by a patina (film, covering - sorry, I don't know as it correctly in English). The steel is not the most bad, but also not the watered steel. There is no sensation of the real fighting weapon. And there are too much photos of street jugglers and there are not enough certificates of using the pair weapon in army.

6th April 2011, 09:44 PM	#12
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Unfortunately, I haven't a scabbard. The handle was plaited again, but the cord is Chinese old.