Re-hilted Bayonet?

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

It is a facón, a knife from Argentina. It is usually made with a discarded bayonet blade. Please see this article:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

I would say from 1940 to 1960.

Regards

Gonzalo

Hi Gonzalo,

It certainly would have fitted in with Brazil, Uruguay or Argentina, but how did you narrow it down to 1940-60? By that time facons were completely obsolete, unless as a film prop.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Chris, I said Argentina and gave a making period because of the style and the apparent age. Neverthless, the facones are continously made to this day, and people purchase them, and I don´t mean tourists, but argentineans. On the Armas Blancas Forum many bladesmiths show their new facones and puñales criollos recently produced. It seems that you have the idea that those argentinean knives are a lost tradition, but it is completely the opposite. I don´t know if they use this knives only on special festivals with their traditional dress, or as everybody says on Argentina, they still use them on some places to work, but the production of this knives has never been stopped. On the contrary, they seem to be very popular. Airon even make and sells bayonet-like blades in Argentina just to be mounted in the traditional ways by silversmiths and other professional "blade mounters". Some people still purchases old bayonets or make their own blades for this purpose. You should see the intense activity of traditional knife making in Argentina just looking the silversmiths and bladesmiths web pages and forums. Please see this recent thread:

http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros...e-gennaro.html

I don´t know if you can see the photos without registering, but you can register and look for yourself this activity.

Of course, the facon could be brazilian, but on the 20th Century the styles have been modernized and mixed from mutual influences, so you can´t be 100% certain of the origin, uness known provenance or the presence of markings which gives a positive identification. Today, any argentinean bladesmith can use any style they like (or to the customer preferences) to make a specific facón.
Regards

Gonzalo

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Please see this recent thread:

http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros...e-gennaro.html

I don´t know if you can see the photos without registering, but you can register and look for yourself this activity.

Thank you Gonzalo, very interesting! link works with most photos without registering, but secondry links to non directly displayed photos do require registration.

Spiral

[Gonzalo G]

I hope the photo of the facón on page 2 of the thread can be seen. It is the third and last photo of this page.
Regards

Gonzalo

[spiral]

Yes its visible. Its Hosted at Tinypic, Here...

http://i38.tinypic.com/2qdo7er.jpg

Its just the forum hosted pics that cant be seen without membership.

Spiral

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

It is important to understand that the long facon, as currently defined, was a knife that was essential to the gauchos of old to hunt and slaughter the wild cattle and horses of the pampas, on which the subsisted. Because of its length and general shape, it had little or no application for more mundane tasks, left to smaller knives, as reflected by edicts of Rosas ( a long term ruler of Argentina to the mid 19th century) re banning facons from his estancias, but allowing the "puñal/cuchillo", a variant of the butcher's knife, because it was a necessary and thus legitimate tool.

Nomadic true gauchos, not the glorified rural labourers who later sequestred the name, those who roamed the pampas (flat grasslands) as free men and lived of wild cattle never amounted to a large population. Historians estimating that their numbers in 1797, in what is now the Buenos Aires province to a mere 8,000. To be sure the pampas took in more than that province, but even so, in their totality, they did not add up to more than a few tens of thousands. And outside of the pampas there were no gauchos.

So from this we can see that those who used and needed facons were few. And with the eventual demise of the wild cattle and horse population, absolutely essential to sustain the gaucho's life style, which was becoming evident by the early decades of the 19th century, if not earlier, the gaucho, his mode of living and facon were very much on the vane. After the revolutionary war of independence from Spain, the gaucho was outlawed, for practical considerations ceased to exists as a free man and was reduced to an agricultural labourer on the estancias of the oligarchy that ruled the land. Some became "montoneros" ( mounted gangs) and a few drifted to the remotest corners of the pampas to live on as before, but their era was largely over, and with it that of the facon.

From that point on, the long bladed facon was looked upon as a weapon, with no utilitarian application and for this reason rarely tolerated. In daily usage, it was replaced by the "puñal/cuchillo" and that was and is the knife most used in the region to this day.

Nevertheless, large "puñals" were colloquially often referred to as facons right into modern times, and this accounts for the mistaken impression that their use continued, which did not. We must remember that the strict classification/nomenclaturization of the various bladed ware of the region was something that was implemented in the 20th century and was brought about by historians and curators.

With the rise of the landed oligarchy came a need for status symbols and this accounts for the ornate silver furnitured bladeware that these days is attributed to the gauchos. Most facons, especially the better made and lavishly silver mounted ones belonged to estancia owners, their overseers, military men and leaders of montoneros - Though I hasten to concede that coarsely made silver decorated knives were owned by even the indians and not a few better heeled workers, especially in the second half of the 19th century.

From the above we can see that by the 20th century, the facon became a dress item to be worn of festive occassions and or being displayed as a conversation piece. Having spent not an inconsiderable amount of time in Sth America, I can assure everybody that anyone who would tuck a facon into their belt, save on dress parades and such like events, would be laughed off as a "fanfarron" (boastful poser), and this was true forty five yeras ago, as it is today.

In the 1940-60 period, the vast majority of traditional knives made in Argentina were either basic utilitarian or very ornate silver or German silver mounted "puñales/cuchillos" to be worn as dress accessories. To be sure, in recent times there has been a renaissance of traditional knife making in Argentina and imitation/replica facons are being made anew. But these are collectors items, very much like modern high end Spanish navajas, the blade shape and length precluding any practical application - We have to remember that wild cattle are no longer hunted from horseback in the old fashioned way with knives and lances.

Re Robert's knife: Not being an expert of bayonets, I cannot identify the age and provenance of the blade, though it appears to have been made in the 2nd half of the 19th century - Perhaps another forumite can help us here. Also, we have to remember that re-hilted bayonets and broken sword blades were not exclusive to Sth America, so this particular example could have come from other regions. However, the general appearance of the piece suggests a much earlier date than that of the mid 1900s.

Something else, a 20" blade is rather long for a facon, though by no means rare. Long facons were difficult and uncomfortable to wear in the traditional manner and as such were pinned under the saddle and thus commonly called "facon caronero" (saddle facon). To facilitate their carriage and drawing, they were generally mounted without a substantial hand-guard. So, a large facon fitted with a large hand-guard was definitely uncommon.

The handguard is untypical of those peculiar to Sh America - Its general shape fits, but not is construction which suggests having been cast or even forged, a mode of manufacture alien to the region until modern times, though not to Europe.

It may or may not be of Sth American provenance and if it did indeed come from the general region, who would have used it and for what purpose? Its rather elegant but Spartan appearance , is inconsistent with the typical silver embellishments that an ostentatious estanciero would have demanded, so that leaves us with perhaps a military man's sidearm. Of course, it could be no more than a curiosity made by a cutler for his own amusement, or as a film prop, out of bits and pieces - It is hard to say from the pictures, but the edge of the blade appears to have seen little use. And the handle appears more substantial than what can be generally obtained from cattle horn - More like Buffalo. So, to me it remains a mystery piece.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Chris, your assumptions are:
1-. The facón belonged only to the gauchos, to make certain jobs
2.- There was no gauchos time ago
3.- There was no need of facones and they were forbidden
4.- So, the facones dissapeared with the gauchos and the rest are false

But, to begin with, and as the specialists says, there were not knives exclusive to the gauchos, but for all the population who demanded or needed them. The general idea of a gaucho knive is one of the typical romatic ideas of an idealized figure, sustained by foreigners. The facón was also used to butcher all kinds of livestock and it is usefull for the same purpose today, for all the people which has small amounts of animals and kill them for their own consumption. It is also widely used to kill or finish off a hunt prey, as the traditional hunting of boars and other animals with dogs is commonly practised. And though the facón is not ideally suited for other tasks, it is also used to perform them. Today, the facon is not forbidden on the countryside as far I understand, but prohibitions never were a consideration for our peoples in Latin America, where the good politicians and government man were the first ones to break the law, and the insufficiency of police numbers was inadecuate to cover big extensions of land. Colonialism and neo-colonialism has not embedded a great respect for the law.

True, this facón is big, but this was not a rare thing among the facones, and the special way they were carried, crossed alongide their backs under the belts, did not impede movements. The facón can be on the limits of it´s size, but the caroneros were bigger, and made with discarded sword and sabre blades. Yes, curved blades. I suppose you read and saw the big facones on the Domenech´s article. Bayonets of this size were carried by many thousand of mens on foot on the wars all over Europe and America during decades. Yes, it can be an impeding weapon in certain circumstances, but neverthless it can be usefull.

I celebrate that you have learned so much during your travels to Latin America, as to make so many asseverations, but your idea is completely alien to the facts of our practices and traditions, as far I can see. For example, you say that the spanish navaja is not used anymore. Certainly, you are thinking in the big ones, more bigger than 30cm when open. But the spanish navaja is it not exclusively the big one. It is not defined by the size, but by other stylistic and constructive features. It came in all sizes and maybe is the source of all the actual folders. And it is made and used very profusely in this days, by many people. Me, for instance. You can check this point with the portuguese and spanish forumites, on this same forum. On other thread, you also said that the puñal criollo was not used anymore. I didn´t want to discuss your beliefs on that moment, but now I also tell you that the puñal criollo (and not gaucho), is often used by the argentineans.

It is not a matter of any revival. Maybe the war and other civil conflicts in Argentina have slowed the production, or the use, of some crafts, as they also slowed other economic areas. Military dictators are always paranoic and nervous about wepons on the hands of the civil population, even about kives. It is not a matter of order and public security (yet they use this argument), but fear of the people. And maybe your personal experiences comes form the times of the military dictadorship over there, when the things were completely different, I don´t know. But the production of this weapons has never stopped, and even if collectors purchase big caroneros, there are still other which are used, NOT in the saddle, as they do not use saddles, but recados. And why should they be called "replicas", if they are made in the interior of a national tradition, by argentinean mounters or bladesmiths who´s fathers did the same? Can we say that the modern bowies are "replicas" only to show and useless big knives, unconfortable to use and carry? In a certain way, they are, but still, they are also usefull, and a living and uninterrupted tradition. The same can be said of the khukri. There is nothing idealistic on it.

Re: Robert´s facón. The handguard is forged, typical of a facón made from the second third of the 20th Century. Not uncommon.
Spartan, as many serviceable and not ornamental facones. Not unusual.
With a dull edge, as it was common on the soft steel of a bayonet used many times. Or in a facón used to kill only with the point, as was usual in the killing of livestock and hunting prey, mainly form the countryside people.
Hilt made with horn, which is VERY common on the argentinean knives. The general form of the hilt is modern, I would say (and I can be mistaken) from the 40´s era. You can see many photos on new and not much old facones from the 20th Century made in this way on the same forum. Please see, read and check for yourself. And apart from Domenech searches, I can´t find any other published work valid on this subject, as other readings I have seen are not very well informed, contain false assumptions or idealize the gauchos and the argentine history, which is learnt from third parties and not from primary sources or direct experience.

Regards

Gonzalo

[Royston]

I agree with Chris Evans that the bayonet is probably from the 2nd half of the 19th century. It appears that bayonets with Yataghan blades were fashionable in many countries for several decades.

What I would like to know, is which bayonet. I started my collecting "career" with bayonets and had a very large collection. I still have a facination with them although I sold the collection many years ago. I retained all my books and have been looking through them to see if I can identify this blade. So far no luck. I am wondering if anyone else knows what it is.

Looking at the fuller, in particular the shape and the distance from the cross guard I don't think it can be any of the following:-
Austrian 1870, French 1842, French 1866, Portuguese 1885. The end of the fuller looks too square on these.
Possibly the Danish 1867, Turkish 1874 or British 1856 although I don't see how the first 2 would have ended up in South America. The Enfield 1856 may be more of a possiblity as there were a lot of them and they did travel.
Is there an american bayonet that fits? I never collected the older bayonets from the USA as they were not readily available in the UK.

I cannot recall any of the S.American countries using yataghan bayonets butno doubt someone will prove me wrong

Regards
Royston

[Gonzalo G]

Yes, I´ll do it In Argentina was used the rifle Martini Henry with the bayonet named "Patent 1860", which had a recycled blade form older avant loaded or front charged models (I don´t recall the name of this kind of weapons). Even in latter replacements of this bayonet for the argentinean army, it was used a copy made by Alex Copel, who also made a replacement of the model named "Elcho".

But it seems to be a misunderstanding here. We are not talking about the blade of the bayonet, but about the facón made with this blade. It is not the same thing. The age of the blade only proofs that the facón was not made earlier, but not that the facón was made in the same era. The facones were made with DISCARDED bayonets, who were first used on the armies of Argentina, Brazil or Uruguay, usually models already discarded form european or USA armies when this Latin American countries recived them as new, and then when discarded in this countries, stored on the military warehouses for years, to be sold latter on wholesale, and latter in reatail by the new owners to the silversmiths and other specialist in mounting them.

So, the facones could be made with bayonets with several decades of age. Even today, very old bayonets are searched to make facones. Personally, I wouldn´t do it, as a bayonet is a piece of collection with it´s own merit, but the silversmiths can make a big deal on money mounting and selling them. It is their tradition.

Neverthless, I agree with Chris in one point: the main (but not exclusive, as on the Argentina´s northeast area it is still used as a weapon and a tool) use of the facón nowadays, is to show with the traditional dress. Sometimes also to show richness, as the best silver mounts could be very costly. And the best ones are mounted with the older and better blades available. We cannot criticize this practice, as here, the most searched swords are the most luxurious and ornamentated ones, showing the richness and power of the original owners.

You can see a discussion about the ACTUAL mounting of a bayonet-yataghan blade form the 19th Century, to make a facón, in this thread:

http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros...ble-curvo.html

I´m afraid the photos can only be seen with a previous registration.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

What strikes me immediately about this discussion is that the key terms used, namely `gaucho' and `facon', changed meaning in the course of history. A gaucho in the colonial and immediate post colonial period was a horseman who roamed the pampas sustaining himself with wild cattle and horses - But by the second half of the 19th century, any agricultural labourer who got around on a horse was also called a gaucho. The eventual differentiation between a "real" gaucho and an agriculural labourer became problematic, as recognized by L.V.Mancilla, which can be read in Domenech's Dagas De Plata (DDP) pg 22

The same applies to the facon. Right into very recent times, any sizeable knife worn by an agricultural horseman, indeed agricultural labourer, was so named. Yet we know on the strength of historical research and surviving specimens that there were significant distinctions to be made.

But, to begin with, and as the specialists says, there were not knives exclusive to the gauchos, but for all the population who demanded or needed them.

If we are talking about knives in general yes, you are absolutely right - If on the other hand you are referring to what these days we call facons and the subject of this thread, then their use was more restricted, especially the longer ones..

The general idea of a gaucho knive is one of the typical romatic ideas of an idealized figure, sustained by foreigners.

Agreed, but not just by foreigners only. The Argentineans themselves promulgated this notion first, as amply demonstrated by their literature. Borges for one - He is pretty careless when it comes to describing bladed ware.

The facón was also used to butcher all kinds of livestock and it is usefull for the same purpose today, for all the people which has small amounts of animals and kill them for their own consumption. It is also widely used to kill or finish off a hunt prey, as the traditional hunting of boars and other animals with dogs is commonly practised.

The large facon, at first invariably made from discarded sword blades and later bayonets, was used primarily to hunt and slaughter wild cattle. A knife of large dimensions, actually more like a short sword, was required to cut the rear leg tendons of the animal so as to bring it down and afterwards to disptach it. For a more detailed description of this see Domenech's Dagas De Plata (DDP) pg 11 and for pics pg 111

This facon had little application for other rural tasks and once the gauchos ceased to hunting wild cattle, the facon became for most part a weapon and hence Rosas disdain for it. Domenech in DDP pgs 63 and 349 tells us that the facon is essentially a weapon - And that's what it became after the nomadic life style of the early gauchos came to an end with the depletion of wild cattle and horses, not to mention their being outlawed after independence.

And though the facón is not ideally suited for other tasks, it is also used to perform them.

Agreed. However, with the advent of modern ranching in the first third of the 19th century, knives much better suited for day to day tasks became normative - Again, refer to Rosas and his attitude to knives.

Today, the facon is not forbidden on the countryside as far I understand,

Nowadays agreed. But in the 19th century a different state of affairs prevailed.

Throughout the 1800s the gaucho, defined as anybody without fixed employement was arrested on sight and gang-pressed into the army or militias. During times of war, even regularly employed labourers were treated in a similar manner. The authorities had to contribute a fixed quota of recruits and they did so by enforcing the various laws, often harshly and unfairly. Whilst you are right in asserting that there was a general contempt for the law, which was often only oserved in the breach, nevertheless there was legislation re knives and their violent usage and this was enforced. Rosas mercilessly flogged any of his workers for knife related misdemeanors - He had himself flogged for a knife related pecadillo, just to set an example and to demonstrate that such breaches would not be tolerated from anyone, not even himself.

The facón can be on the limits of it´s size, but the caroneros were bigger, and made with discarded sword and sabre blades.

This particular specimen, if it was used in Sth America, could have qualified as either an oversize facon or a shortish caronero.

Bayonets of this size were carried by many thousand of mens on foot on the wars all over Europe and America during decades. Yes, it can be an impeding weapon in certain circumstances, but neverthless it can be usefull.

Of course a blade this long can be carried quite comfortably, but only if the sheath is suspended from the belt as a sword would.

.... For example, you say that the spanish navaja is not used anymore. Certainly, you are thinking in the big ones, more bigger than 30cm when open. But the spanish navaja is it not exclusively the big one. It is not defined by the size, but by other stylistic and constructive features.

Navaja in Spanish means no more than a folding knife. However, as we in the English speaking world generally use the term, it refers to clasp knives that replicate those of old Spain, with blades at least 6" long or longer and whicht had serious potential as weapons. In my posts I always went out of my way to make this clear. This is OT here, though I'll be happy to discuss this subject further in another thread should you wish to do so.

On other thread, you also said that the puñal criollo was not used anymore. I didn´t want to discuss your beliefs on that moment, but now I also tell you that the puñal criollo (and not gaucho), is often used by the argentineans.

I can't remember having said any such thing, and if I inadvertently conveyed such an impression, I'll happily retract it. I fact, I contend that the puñal so called, which is nothing more than a glorified butchers knife, is and was the knife most used in Sth America. As for the puñal criollo vs gaucho, you are repeating what I already said in another thread, and on this we are in agreement.

It is not a matter of any revival.

Yes it is.

There were always `platerias' (silverware shops) that commissioned the manufacture and sold traditionally mounted knives, mostly puñales, but in the last 15yrs or so, there has been a definite resurgence of interest and manufacture of all manner of cut and thrust weapons. In my observation, this paralleled the HEMA movement in other parts of the world, but with the addition of a regional flavour, emphasizing gaucho inspired themes.

But the production of this weapons has never stopped, and even if collectors purchase big caroneros, there are still other which are used, NOT in the saddle, as they do not use saddles, but recados.

Oh come on, lets not argue about the subtleties of the gaucho `recado'. The nearest English word is saddle, and in this context it surely suffices.

BTW. I am not sure if I understand you, but are you suggesting that facon caroneros are still used in earnest?

And why should they be called "replicas", if they are made in the interior of a national tradition, by argentinean mounters or bladesmiths who´s fathers did the same? Can we say that the modern bowies are "replicas" only to show and useless big knives, unconfortable to use and carry? In a certain way, they are, but still, they are also usefull, and a living and uninterrupted tradition. The same can be said of the khukri. There is nothing idealistic on it.

This is a matter of semantics, but to me, and probably most people, the manufacture of any outdated implement is replication. For example nobody would call a modern rendition of a cap and ball revolver anything other than a replica, even if it was made by the same factory that turned out the originals 150yrs ago. Should you call such a revolver the manifestation of a living tradition, you would be implying that it is still being used in earnest, which would be disingenuous.

I hold that the facon, as defined by Domenech, fell into gradual disuse after the early decades of the19th century, save as a weapon of outlaws, and dress accessory/status symbol, having been replaced by the puñal/cuchillo - IMO, any recently made facon cannot be called anything other than a replica.

Re: Robert´s facón. The handguard is forged, typical of a facón made from the second third of the 20th Century. Not uncommon.

As this knife does not bear any marks that identify its origins, we cannot be sure of its provenance. However, if you think that it was made in Argentina between 1940 and 60, can you direct us to similar examples positively identified?

Spartan, as many serviceable and not ornamental facones. Not unusual.

On the contrary - Discounting perhaps very modern works, I would suggest that this specimen does not fit in at all with the trends of the time span that you suggest. Discounting working knives, the 1940-60 period, was characterized by lavish silver ornamentation.

Hilt made with horn, which is VERY common on the argentinean knives.

I agree that cattle horn is very common in Argentina, but finding a solid piece of the size of this hilt is not that easy. But of course, if it was indeed made in the time span that you suggest, then the cutler could have obtained the horn from anywhere. The problem here is to prove that it was made in that time span. To me it looks like buffalo horn, but that's just from the photos.

The general form of the hilt is modern, I would say (and I can be mistaken) from the 40´s era. You can see many photos on new and not much old facons from the 20th Century made in this way on the same forum.

I have yet to see one that is similar in detail to this one and which can be positively traced to those years. Again, could you perhaps give us some examples?

Neverthless, I agree with Chris in one point: the main (but not exclusive, as on the Argentina´s northeast area it is still used as a weapon and a tool) use of the facón nowadays, is to show with the traditional dress. Sometimes also to show richness, as the best silver mounts could be very costly. And the best ones are mounted with the older and better blades available. We cannot criticize this practice, as here, the most searched swords are the most luxurious and ornamentated ones, showing the richness and power of the original owners

By north east you mean around Misones? I was there in 1990 and never saw a single facon. Plenty of machetes, a few smallish puñales and verijeros, but no facons. Same in the north west, in Salta and Jujuy, supposedly the centre of the modern "gaucho" revival. Couldn't even find a decent souvenier piece, only junk.

And what do you make out of Robert's other knife?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5456

Cheers
Chris