Old knife with military markings -- ideas?

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 01:04 AM

I completely do not understand what you mean by a blade that is flat on one side and an opposite side that is ground to the edge not being chisel ground; sounds like chisel ground to me; can you describe the cross section differently, or clarify the difference?

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 01:16 AM

Ian, I've private messaged you some examples from a commercial website

I may or may not be able to find them on the forum; interest in these talibons and talibesques (a made up word, I hope you understand) is something that hardly existed in N American even say 2 years ago.....

zelbone · 11th April 2005, 02:59 AM

Ian, there's nothing unusual about Luzon origin sandata with ferrules on both ends of the hilt as well as having an ovoid (egg-shaped) hilt profile. I've seen several bolos with hilts with these features and most likely more Tagalog than Ilocano, Papangan, or Pangasinan. The more horse-hoof styles seem to come from these areas further away from Manila. As for the "pseudo-chiseled" edge blade profile you are refering to with the short bevel as opposed to the really wide bevel found in the Visayas, many swords in Luzon have blades with these especially around Batangas.

One more comment; as for the chopped-tip matulis blade, yes many blades had their tips chopped for a variety of reasons. However, many blades were actually forged into that specific shape for a good reason: at the end of the 19th C. there was a law prohibiting pointed bolos by the Spanish rule in the Philippines. Of course not everyone follows the rules especially those further away from the central government, but many bolos had their points chopped or were forged with a blunt tip. This doesn't mean a chopped-tip bolo is only a "working" bolo. Sure some resemble the Visayan espading, but many are actually fighting swords. Among the bolos in the pictures I've enclosed is a blunt tip sword with a bone hilt and double brass ferrules. The octagonal hilt is ovoid in profile with a nice bone hilt...too nice for a "working" bolo. The blade is 20 inches long and slender with a blunt (i.e. "legal" for that time period) tip. This is an arnisador's sword and handles like one as well.

The other "chopped" sword has a more traditional horsehoof hilt. Notice that both swords have fitted tooled leather scabbards that follow the profile of the swords showing that they were never cut down. The other sword with the egg-shaped hilt and double ferrules is a genuine old matulis. The dagger has double ferrules as well, but also has the flat back and short bevel blade you are referring to.

Ian · 11th April 2005, 05:08 AM

It's late and I don't have much time to respond.

Rick: Yes, the hilt on that cut point bolo looks similar to the one I show, although mine is minus the spiral groove and the handle is made of wood not caribou horn. With the provenance you have, it must be almost certainly from the Philippines. Is the blade the usual V-grind or chisel ground?

I think you and others have effectively established that this general style of knife existed in the Philippines, and that was known before the present post and is not really an issue. The question comes down to whether this is a predominantly Spanish style or a Philippine style. If it is unique to the Philippines, then I need look no further. If the style is predominantly Spanish, and given the military inscription in Spanish that may be a logical deduction, then the possibilities are much broader. That's why I'm looking carefully at the particular characteristics to see if they match common experiences with other Philippine knives of this variety. If not, it could be an uncommon example of a Filipino knife, or an example from somewhere else in the former Spanish Empire. BTW, I have had no success in tracking down the regimental number.

Tom: I'm having trouble communicating the cross section of the blade, largely because I don't really know what to call it. The back is perfectly flat. The other side has a convex grind to the edge, not a flat bevel of the wide (Visayan) or narrow (Batangas) variety.

Zel: No question that Luzon knives can have ferrules at either end and a variety of cross sections, as you have illustrated. Of the examples that you show, perhaps the hilt at the bottom comes closest to my knife (minus the guard). A picture from the end of the pommel will help explain the shape of the hilt, and I will post one shortly.

I also understand that pointed bolos were prohibited by the Spanish at certain times to limit the local population's use of such lethal weapons. But this is a regimentally marked blade -- why would a compromised weapon be issued to/used by a Government soldier? Perhaps Tom's suggestion of a tool is correct.

Ian.

Rick · 11th April 2005, 01:29 PM

Hi Ian , perhaps the answer (or clues) may be found in a study of the regimental history .

I'd also like to ask you if Marc has suggested any particular alternate Spanish Colonial areas as origin .

To add I'd also like to suggest that hand engraving (which is what this script looks like to me) would not be used for a Gov't issue work knife .

We have seen plenty of examples of bringbacks and souvenir pieces that have been hand engraved .

zelbone · 11th April 2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Ian , perhaps the answer (or clues) may be found in a study of the regimental history .

I'd also like to ask you if Marc has suggested any particular alternate Spanish Colonial areas as origin .

To add I'd also like to suggest that hand engraving (which is what this script looks like to me) would not be used for a Gov't issue work knife .

We have seen plenty of examples of bringbacks and souvenir pieces that have been hand engraved .

I was thinking the same thing, Rick. This could have been a Spanish soldier's souvenir.

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 06:00 PM

Some unorganized thoughts: Rick's middle sword, the one with the spiral handle, looks like it may actually be shortened(?) As I explain a bit on the other current thread about these (Is there a combining function? can someone post a clickable link? Am I making too much work for people?), some people do like a wide/blunt tip for fighting. But probably it was a soldier's private issue sword, quite possibly from his past civilian life, but often military units like to keep the men "disarmed" when not fighting; and it is in specifically ,military or other confined regimented environments where you sometimes find regulations that can create such blades.
Matulis do indeed closely resemble some Spainish and Mexican bolos ( I will try to send a pic, one day, one day.....); food for definite thought. Of course, the unit designation could well be that of a foreign/invading soldier, as Rick says.
Ian, I think the cross-section you're describing is "humpy-flatty" flat as flat or an obvious attempt at it on one side, the other wedges all the way down to the edge, but is distinctly not flat, but humped with a continual rounded convexly curved surface. This is a common alternative form of a chisel grind, and is probably created more in after-market sharpening in many cases, but is similar to a one-sided version of, for instance, a Japanese "clam shell" bevel, but on the other hand, a similarly humped surface, though with a centralized edge, like the clamshell, is not uncommon on old European swords, especially "folk art"/poor peoples' swords.....

Rick · 11th April 2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

It's late and I don't have much time to respond.

Rick: Yes, the hilt on that cut point bolo looks similar to the one I show, although mine is minus the spiral groove and the handle is made of wood not caribou horn. With the provenance you have, it must be almost certainly from the Philippines. Is the blade the usual V-grind or chisel ground?

I think you and others have effectively established that this general style of knife existed in the Philippines, and that was known before the present post and is not really an issue. The question comes down to whether this is a predominantly Spanish style or a Philippine style. If it is unique to the Philippines, then I need look no further. If the style is predominantly Spanish, and given the military inscription in Spanish that may be a logical deduction, then the possibilities are much broader. That's why I'm looking carefully at the particular characteristics to see if they match common experiences with other Philippine knives of this variety. If not, it could be an uncommon example of a Filipino knife, or an example from somewhere else in the former Spanish Empire. BTW, I have had no success in tracking down the regimental number.
Ian.

Hi Ian , my bolo is definitely chisel ground in that it has a flat side right to the edge , the other side has more like a gentle curve to edge of the the flat side rather than the angular Visayan style of edge .

That would still be chisel ground , no ?

Is there any literature we know of on the work knives of Old Spain ?

Rick

tom hyle · 12th April 2005, 12:08 AM

Rick, I'll try to check the old swap forum for your postings. Whenever I try to search the new forums, it always tells me no matches; always, even when I use words or phrases I know are in there; I suppose I'm doing it wrong; just never cared enough to seek help with it; always plenty else to do....

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 01:44 AM

What did I say the other day "nothing like the grocery line for thinking?" Yeah, except traffic and lights on the way to work

Firsrt, let me say, as I already have that the idea of sort of Pan-Imperial Spanish colonial styles and features has a lot of validity to it, but I do think that in most cases (not all) some local feature or features can be tracked down. But certainly features are very similar/widespread; the leather sheaths from Luzon are almost exactly like those from Central and S America, down to the slanty strap holes; these two Mexican daggers I have are very matulis-like, and it is certainly possible that it has its origin in Spanish bolos, but let me elucidate some things about the concept that the matulis and the talibon are related, and especially that one sees intermediate forms. First, I'm pretty sure that matulis Ian described sounds like a type of "chisel" (ie, one-sided) bevel, and if not I have owned one matulis with a chisel-ground edge, and bid on another that I did not bid high enough to buy it. Second, there are a lot of matulis-like talibons or talibesques. I have a conception of a "true talibon"; it may be a culturally valid distinction or not, but it is a defineable thing, if nothing else; let me tell you about it; the true talibon has these features: A curved, SE chisel-bevelled blade with a widened belly, that may be widest at middle, or near either tip or base; A very characteristic trapezoidal (I usually call it triangular, but it's really a trapezoid) nonsharp shaft/ricassoe; A fairly sharp and distinct angle between the two; Handle is wider toward the blade (this may be to make up for both no ferule and no guard); Handle is curved, with a hooked pommel. Note that I did not include features that are variations/options/etc. within talibon, such as thumbrests, curved vs. straight spine to cutting blade, 3 lobe pommel, various cross sections, or what-have-you. There is, however, one fairly common type of variation that doesn't fit my definition (again, possibly false due to foreign-ness, but never the less useful, and is talibon even a word?

) of true talibon; others consider it talibon; I think of it as a variety of talibesque. Picture a talibon. One with a curved cutting blade, curved spine and edge. But with no sharp angle between shaft and blade, buta forward curve, so s-curved. But with a straight (though still usually hook-pommelled) handle. Maybe it even has an overall wedge section, with a chisel ground edge. Perhaps it is even not a highly curved one. Now, that is one matulis-like talibon; that seems like an intermediate form right there, to me. And I've got one sitting right on my shelf, and I think there's a pic of it in my camera.

Surely knowledge of ethnic locations, movements, etc. would help clarify this matter, but I have little.

What else makes for a talisbesque? A binagon or "Bonifacio" style handle with a tapered ferule or bolster. I've seen a number, and with or without a guard. Some of them could verge over into talibon-like matulis.
Also, when the swell of the blade base transitions into a true dropped edge, I think some sort of line has been crossed, style/design wise, whether that means one is not a "true" talibon, or that there are just various types of talibon......often with this feature is seen a more European style ricassoe, on the talibon/talibesque.

Ian, If you are able to scan pictures, and will send me your snail mail address, I'll mail you a couple pictures. I think you're onto something important with the spread of cultural influence through the Spanish empire.

11th April 2005, 02:59 AM	#3
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Ian, there's nothing unusual about Luzon origin sandata with ferrules on both ends of the hilt as well as having an ovoid (egg-shaped) hilt profile. I've seen several bolos with hilts with these features and most likely more Tagalog than Ilocano, Papangan, or Pangasinan. The more horse-hoof styles seem to come from these areas further away from Manila. As for the "pseudo-chiseled" edge blade profile you are refering to with the short bevel as opposed to the really wide bevel found in the Visayas, many swords in Luzon have blades with these especially around Batangas. One more comment; as for the chopped-tip matulis blade, yes many blades had their tips chopped for a variety of reasons. However, many blades were actually forged into that specific shape for a good reason: at the end of the 19th C. there was a law prohibiting pointed bolos by the Spanish rule in the Philippines. Of course not everyone follows the rules especially those further away from the central government, but many bolos had their points chopped or were forged with a blunt tip. This doesn't mean a chopped-tip bolo is only a "working" bolo. Sure some resemble the Visayan espading, but many are actually fighting swords. Among the bolos in the pictures I've enclosed is a blunt tip sword with a bone hilt and double brass ferrules. The octagonal hilt is ovoid in profile with a nice bone hilt...too nice for a "working" bolo. The blade is 20 inches long and slender with a blunt (i.e. "legal" for that time period) tip. This is an arnisador's sword and handles like one as well. The other "chopped" sword has a more traditional horsehoof hilt. Notice that both swords have fitted tooled leather scabbards that follow the profile of the swords showing that they were never cut down. The other sword with the egg-shaped hilt and double ferrules is a genuine old matulis. The dagger has double ferrules as well, but also has the flat back and short bevel blade you are referring to. Attached Images

11th April 2005, 05:08 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,470	It's late and I don't have much time to respond. Rick: Yes, the hilt on that cut point bolo looks similar to the one I show, although mine is minus the spiral groove and the handle is made of wood not caribou horn. With the provenance you have, it must be almost certainly from the Philippines. Is the blade the usual V-grind or chisel ground? I think you and others have effectively established that this general style of knife existed in the Philippines, and that was known before the present post and is not really an issue. The question comes down to whether this is a predominantly Spanish style or a Philippine style. If it is unique to the Philippines, then I need look no further. If the style is predominantly Spanish, and given the military inscription in Spanish that may be a logical deduction, then the possibilities are much broader. That's why I'm looking carefully at the particular characteristics to see if they match common experiences with other Philippine knives of this variety. If not, it could be an uncommon example of a Filipino knife, or an example from somewhere else in the former Spanish Empire. BTW, I have had no success in tracking down the regimental number. Tom: I'm having trouble communicating the cross section of the blade, largely because I don't really know what to call it. The back is perfectly flat. The other side has a convex grind to the edge, not a flat bevel of the wide (Visayan) or narrow (Batangas) variety. Zel: No question that Luzon knives can have ferrules at either end and a variety of cross sections, as you have illustrated. Of the examples that you show, perhaps the hilt at the bottom comes closest to my knife (minus the guard). A picture from the end of the pommel will help explain the shape of the hilt, and I will post one shortly. I also understand that pointed bolos were prohibited by the Spanish at certain times to limit the local population's use of such lethal weapons. But this is a regimentally marked blade -- why would a compromised weapon be issued to/used by a Government soldier? Perhaps Tom's suggestion of a tool is correct. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 11th April 2005 at 05:28 AM.

11th April 2005, 01:04 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I completely do not understand what you mean by a blade that is flat on one side and an opposite side that is ground to the edge not being chisel ground; sounds like chisel ground to me; can you describe the cross section differently, or clarify the difference?

11th April 2005, 01:16 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ian, I've private messaged you some examples from a commercial website I may or may not be able to find them on the forum; interest in these talibons and talibesques (a made up word, I hope you understand) is something that hardly existed in N American even say 2 years ago.....

11th April 2005, 01:29 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Hi Ian , perhaps the answer (or clues) may be found in a study of the regimental history . I'd also like to ask you if Marc has suggested any particular alternate Spanish Colonial areas as origin . To add I'd also like to suggest that hand engraving (which is what this script looks like to me) would not be used for a Gov't issue work knife . We have seen plenty of examples of bringbacks and souvenir pieces that have been hand engraved .

11th April 2005, 06:00 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Some unorganized thoughts: Rick's middle sword, the one with the spiral handle, looks like it may actually be shortened(?) As I explain a bit on the other current thread about these (Is there a combining function? can someone post a clickable link? Am I making too much work for people?), some people do like a wide/blunt tip for fighting. But probably it was a soldier's private issue sword, quite possibly from his past civilian life, but often military units like to keep the men "disarmed" when not fighting; and it is in specifically ,military or other confined regimented environments where you sometimes find regulations that can create such blades. Matulis do indeed closely resemble some Spainish and Mexican bolos ( I will try to send a pic, one day, one day.....); food for definite thought. Of course, the unit designation could well be that of a foreign/invading soldier, as Rick says. Ian, I think the cross-section you're describing is "humpy-flatty" flat as flat or an obvious attempt at it on one side, the other wedges all the way down to the edge, but is distinctly not flat, but humped with a continual rounded convexly curved surface. This is a common alternative form of a chisel grind, and is probably created more in after-market sharpening in many cases, but is similar to a one-sided version of, for instance, a Japanese "clam shell" bevel, but on the other hand, a similarly humped surface, though with a centralized edge, like the clamshell, is not uncommon on old European swords, especially "folk art"/poor peoples' swords.....

12th April 2005, 12:08 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick, I'll try to check the old swap forum for your postings. Whenever I try to search the new forums, it always tells me no matches; always, even when I use words or phrases I know are in there; I suppose I'm doing it wrong; just never cared enough to seek help with it; always plenty else to do....

14th April 2005, 01:44 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What did I say the other day "nothing like the grocery line for thinking?" Yeah, except traffic and lights on the way to work Firsrt, let me say, as I already have that the idea of sort of Pan-Imperial Spanish colonial styles and features has a lot of validity to it, but I do think that in most cases (not all) some local feature or features can be tracked down. But certainly features are very similar/widespread; the leather sheaths from Luzon are almost exactly like those from Central and S America, down to the slanty strap holes; these two Mexican daggers I have are very matulis-like, and it is certainly possible that it has its origin in Spanish bolos, but let me elucidate some things about the concept that the matulis and the talibon are related, and especially that one sees intermediate forms. First, I'm pretty sure that matulis Ian described sounds like a type of "chisel" (ie, one-sided) bevel, and if not I have owned one matulis with a chisel-ground edge, and bid on another that I did not bid high enough to buy it. Second, there are a lot of matulis-like talibons or talibesques. I have a conception of a "true talibon"; it may be a culturally valid distinction or not, but it is a defineable thing, if nothing else; let me tell you about it; the true talibon has these features: A curved, SE chisel-bevelled blade with a widened belly, that may be widest at middle, or near either tip or base; A very characteristic trapezoidal (I usually call it triangular, but it's really a trapezoid) nonsharp shaft/ricassoe; A fairly sharp and distinct angle between the two; Handle is wider toward the blade (this may be to make up for both no ferule and no guard); Handle is curved, with a hooked pommel. Note that I did not include features that are variations/options/etc. within talibon, such as thumbrests, curved vs. straight spine to cutting blade, 3 lobe pommel, various cross sections, or what-have-you. There is, however, one fairly common type of variation that doesn't fit my definition (again, possibly false due to foreign-ness, but never the less useful, and is talibon even a word? ) of true talibon; others consider it talibon; I think of it as a variety of talibesque. Picture a talibon. One with a curved cutting blade, curved spine and edge. But with no sharp angle between shaft and blade, buta forward curve, so s-curved. But with a straight (though still usually hook-pommelled) handle. Maybe it even has an overall wedge section, with a chisel ground edge. Perhaps it is even not a highly curved one. Now, that is one matulis-like talibon; that seems like an intermediate form right there, to me. And I've got one sitting right on my shelf, and I think there's a pic of it in my camera. Surely knowledge of ethnic locations, movements, etc. would help clarify this matter, but I have little. What else makes for a talisbesque? A binagon or "Bonifacio" style handle with a tapered ferule or bolster. I've seen a number, and with or without a guard. Some of them could verge over into talibon-like matulis. Also, when the swell of the blade base transitions into a true dropped edge, I think some sort of line has been crossed, style/design wise, whether that means one is not a "true" talibon, or that there are just various types of talibon......often with this feature is seen a more European style ricassoe, on the talibon/talibesque. Ian, If you are able to scan pictures, and will send me your snail mail address, I'll mail you a couple pictures. I think you're onto something important with the spread of cultural influence through the Spanish empire.