Old knife with military markings -- ideas?

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 09:18 PM

I'm back, and happy to have a go at your questions, Ian.

Thanks for pressing me; sometimes it helps me think; let's see if now is one of those times

I agree that "the progressions of weapons development" I suggest "may or may not be true" they're just feelings based on examples I've seen; no real folklore, even, and I'd really love to know better what's going on geoculturally.

I agree on the thru tangs as European; the tube-handle/socket more likely from mainland SE Asia. But joined to those European thru tang are blades of various degrees, of course, of native influence. The matulis seems particularly native, and I'll tell you why; first, the chisel grind which I see only on ones that seem solidly old; weren't you saying yours is c ground? Or just bringing up the idea? Am I confused? It's less common on them than a wedge shape, but is one thing that may suggest a Visayan relation. Now, the blade is much the same shape overall as an old, "garab" talibon, the kind with a curved cutting blade (the tip of the matulis), anled forward from a triangular shaft/ricassoe (sharpish, very wide, even guard-like, somewhat vestigial, and somewhat transitioned into a smooth s-curve on the matulis, but present), and, sometimes, on old ones, though not all old ones, the same overall wedge-section chisel ground only at the edge/secondary bevel. Look at Rick's recurved pointy one; I think it was the bottom one in the pic (?)

I think the natives had pointy daggers, at least, if not swords, on their own, and contact with the mainland would be as influential as Europe in this regard, no?

The tear-drop shaped shaped guards seen on some of these seem related to minimal Moro guards and lumand integral to the ferule/handle flat quards, and the crossguards I've seen on some of 'em seem as Lumady as they do Europy.

I agree about the pan-imperial trade, and by the way, you should see these two matulis-like Mexican daggers (bowies) I just got, and you know what else reminded me of these daggers, is that picture of the guy with the cape for a shield on the navaja thread; the blade is very like my two little Mexican bolos.

I think you have seen transitional forms, and just haven't recognized them as such; I think indeed, matulis is such a form. There are also Visayan swords with a talibon blade or a very talisbesque blade with the same cutting blade and forward lean, but no ricassoe, often with guards, and occasionally wedge-sectioned. There are smoothly s-curved talibons, but especially talibesques with octagon ferules. There are binagons (or tenegres?) with triangular based forward leaned talibesque blades, many of full regular sword size, and with handguards that may relate in here somewhere......One sees so many different handles on talibons and talibesques, and so many blade varieties; slim tip or wide chisel ground or wedge overall wedge overall flat or overall thicker to the cutting edge (like my Mexican daggers, too!), curved or straight cutting blade, various angles of ricassoe and of tang and edge in relation to hilt; a wild profusion.

Very sorry, but pics are not my best capability at all;I've almost filled a roll & the rest are assigned and my books are minimal, etc.....

[QUOTE=
I have not seen a full tang sword or knife with a chisel grind that was of native manufacture and intended for local use.
I'm also not sure what you mean by the C-grind knives referred to below.

Ian.

[/QUOTE]

I don't understand this part of the question, perhaps I've answered it anyway, by rambling? Or maybe you can reword it for me?

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 09:27 PM

Know this, too, as a solid archaeological fact: Medieval and post-medieval Europeans often used knives and some daggers that were wedge-sectioned with a scarft-welded, chisel-bevelled edge. I've seen ones in books; dredged out of rivers in England and Russia.

Rick · 10th April 2005, 09:46 PM

Hi Guys , all three of those bolos came from the same source , a member of the Washington State Volunteers who served exclusively on Luzon . They came with a xerox of his discharge including a list of the battles and skirmishes he had been involved in .
The horsehead hilted one we can wonder about ; the other two have the same through tang construction and ferruling as your piece Ian .

I'd say you can be pretty safe in attributing this bolo to Luzon .

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:06 PM

Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:09 PM

Ooh! Rick! Where on Luzon?

Rick · 10th April 2005, 11:29 PM

Kinda busy right now Tom , I'll pull the paperwork and post it soon . Or you could do a Swap forum search ; I have offered them for sale a couple of times with no takers . There is probably info there , may be on the old forum , not sure .

Ian · 10th April 2005, 11:52 PM

Guys:

I hear what you are saying, but you have not addressed the points that bother me about the attribution of this knife to the northern Philippines.

1. Do any of your examples have a flat side and an opposite side that has been ground to the edge (NOT chisel ground)?

2. Do any of your examples have a hilt with an ovoid (pear-shaped, tear drop) cross section?

3. Who among us has the experience to say this does or does not come from another Spanish colonial setting?

Our substantial familiarity with Philippines weapons outweighs our collective ignorance about other Spanish colonial weapons. When I posted this one on SFI, Juan Perez (who moderates the Spanish language part of that forum) suggested other Spanish colonial origins as possibilities. My concern is that we are comfortable with what we know about familiar topics, but we have little understanding of what we don't know about unfamiliar topics. That is a form of bias (or self-deception) for which Ruel would rightly chastise us -- it is one of the fallacies of inductive reasoning.

Tom, I will rephrase some of my questions and be more specific in the next few days. Not a lot of time right now to write at length. In the meanwhile, would you look through some of the dozens of pictures of Philippine weapons from the Visayas and Luzon on this site, and point out ones that illustrate the transitions you mention? I'm thinking we are talking at cross purposes on some of these issues.

I will also try to post some better pictures of the hilt and blade of the knife above in the next couple of days. I'm away from home at the moment.

Ian.

Rick · 10th April 2005, 11:59 PM

Hi Ian , respectfully ,

#1. Yes

#2. Yes

#3. Guaranteed my example is a Philippine bringback from the Span Am war era . I would have to be a time traveler to know more .

One more thing , this bolo has a carabao horn hilt , what other Spanish colony had Water Buffalo , Mexico , anywhere in S.A. ?
And to add even one more detail , consider the scabbard that is shown next to the bolo .

As Meatloaf's song title says : 2 out of 3 Ain't bad .

I'll be glad to ship you this example for personal examination if you wish , just PM me .

Rick

10th April 2005, 10:09 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ooh! Rick! Where on Luzon? Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 10:10 PM. Reason: grammer...grammar....augh!

10th April 2005, 11:59 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Hi Ian , respectfully , #1. Yes #2. Yes #3. Guaranteed my example is a Philippine bringback from the Span Am war era . I would have to be a time traveler to know more . One more thing , this bolo has a carabao horn hilt , what other Spanish colony had Water Buffalo , Mexico , anywhere in S.A. ? And to add even one more detail , consider the scabbard that is shown next to the bolo . As Meatloaf's song title says : 2 out of 3 Ain't bad . I'll be glad to ship you this example for personal examination if you wish , just PM me . Rick Last edited by Rick; 11th April 2005 at 12:44 AM.

10th April 2005, 09:18 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm back, and happy to have a go at your questions, Ian. Thanks for pressing me; sometimes it helps me think; let's see if now is one of those times I agree that "the progressions of weapons development" I suggest "may or may not be true" they're just feelings based on examples I've seen; no real folklore, even, and I'd really love to know better what's going on geoculturally. I agree on the thru tangs as European; the tube-handle/socket more likely from mainland SE Asia. But joined to those European thru tang are blades of various degrees, of course, of native influence. The matulis seems particularly native, and I'll tell you why; first, the chisel grind which I see only on ones that seem solidly old; weren't you saying yours is c ground? Or just bringing up the idea? Am I confused? It's less common on them than a wedge shape, but is one thing that may suggest a Visayan relation. Now, the blade is much the same shape overall as an old, "garab" talibon, the kind with a curved cutting blade (the tip of the matulis), anled forward from a triangular shaft/ricassoe (sharpish, very wide, even guard-like, somewhat vestigial, and somewhat transitioned into a smooth s-curve on the matulis, but present), and, sometimes, on old ones, though not all old ones, the same overall wedge-section chisel ground only at the edge/secondary bevel. Look at Rick's recurved pointy one; I think it was the bottom one in the pic (?) I think the natives had pointy daggers, at least, if not swords, on their own, and contact with the mainland would be as influential as Europe in this regard, no? The tear-drop shaped shaped guards seen on some of these seem related to minimal Moro guards and lumand integral to the ferule/handle flat quards, and the crossguards I've seen on some of 'em seem as Lumady as they do Europy. I agree about the pan-imperial trade, and by the way, you should see these two matulis-like Mexican daggers (bowies) I just got, and you know what else reminded me of these daggers, is that picture of the guy with the cape for a shield on the navaja thread; the blade is very like my two little Mexican bolos. I think you have seen transitional forms, and just haven't recognized them as such; I think indeed, matulis is such a form. There are also Visayan swords with a talibon blade or a very talisbesque blade with the same cutting blade and forward lean, but no ricassoe, often with guards, and occasionally wedge-sectioned. There are smoothly s-curved talibons, but especially talibesques with octagon ferules. There are binagons (or tenegres?) with triangular based forward leaned talibesque blades, many of full regular sword size, and with handguards that may relate in here somewhere......One sees so many different handles on talibons and talibesques, and so many blade varieties; slim tip or wide chisel ground or wedge overall wedge overall flat or overall thicker to the cutting edge (like my Mexican daggers, too!), curved or straight cutting blade, various angles of ricassoe and of tang and edge in relation to hilt; a wild profusion. Very sorry, but pics are not my best capability at all;I've almost filled a roll & the rest are assigned and my books are minimal, etc..... [QUOTE= I have not seen a full tang sword or knife with a chisel grind that was of native manufacture and intended for local use. I'm also not sure what you mean by the C-grind knives referred to below. Ian. [/QUOTE] I don't understand this part of the question, perhaps I've answered it anyway, by rambling? Or maybe you can reword it for me? Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 09:24 PM. Reason: "there are smoothly s curved talibons"

10th April 2005, 09:27 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Know this, too, as a solid archaeological fact: Medieval and post-medieval Europeans often used knives and some daggers that were wedge-sectioned with a scarft-welded, chisel-bevelled edge. I've seen ones in books; dredged out of rivers in England and Russia.

10th April 2005, 09:46 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Hi Guys , all three of those bolos came from the same source , a member of the Washington State Volunteers who served exclusively on Luzon . They came with a xerox of his discharge including a list of the battles and skirmishes he had been involved in . The horsehead hilted one we can wonder about ; the other two have the same through tang construction and ferruling as your piece Ian . I'd say you can be pretty safe in attributing this bolo to Luzon .

10th April 2005, 10:06 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.

10th April 2005, 11:29 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Kinda busy right now Tom , I'll pull the paperwork and post it soon . Or you could do a Swap forum search ; I have offered them for sale a couple of times with no takers . There is probably info there , may be on the old forum , not sure .

10th April 2005, 11:52 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,454	Guys: I hear what you are saying, but you have not addressed the points that bother me about the attribution of this knife to the northern Philippines. 1. Do any of your examples have a flat side and an opposite side that has been ground to the edge (NOT chisel ground)? 2. Do any of your examples have a hilt with an ovoid (pear-shaped, tear drop) cross section? 3. Who among us has the experience to say this does or does not come from another Spanish colonial setting? Our substantial familiarity with Philippines weapons outweighs our collective ignorance about other Spanish colonial weapons. When I posted this one on SFI, Juan Perez (who moderates the Spanish language part of that forum) suggested other Spanish colonial origins as possibilities. My concern is that we are comfortable with what we know about familiar topics, but we have little understanding of what we don't know about unfamiliar topics. That is a form of bias (or self-deception) for which Ruel would rightly chastise us -- it is one of the fallacies of inductive reasoning. Tom, I will rephrase some of my questions and be more specific in the next few days. Not a lot of time right now to write at length. In the meanwhile, would you look through some of the dozens of pictures of Philippine weapons from the Visayas and Luzon on this site, and point out ones that illustrate the transitions you mention? I'm thinking we are talking at cross purposes on some of these issues. I will also try to post some better pictures of the hilt and blade of the knife above in the next couple of days. I'm away from home at the moment. Ian.