E-Bay bans all ivory sales!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ariel

What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle).
But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika...
I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else?
Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)?
Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)?
There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances.
Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species.

Soon (in the UK) the government will tighten the laws on bladed weapons (specifically to target cheap imported Chinese combat style knives) even though most fatal stabbings in the UK are committed with kitchen knives. I have no doubt that at that time ebay.uk will ban the sale of bladed weapons entirely.

[Royston]

Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species.

Atlantia,

I am with you on this.

Royston

PS
I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Royston

....

PS
I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

oh, the horror, the poor morrises, how they have been mistreated by the evil englanders, being belled and danced to the point of distinction, and then being hit with them sticky things. why it's as shocking as all them poor polyesters that died to provide someone with a polyester fur coat - there oughta be a law! this could never happen in california.

here we have an evil gang of morris dancers in their traditional gang colours, the remains of a poor morris are on the wall above them.


here we have another, note the variation in their evil gang oriented clothing, this group being armed to the teeth with cudgels, knobkerries and other weapons of mass morris destruction. note the organization of these indoctrinated and practiced evildoers as they head smiling for yet another morris termination.



and here we have a northern variant, the yorkshire longsword morris dancers, armed with their evil and soon to be banned longswords, heading for a ritual decapitation. the poor ritual, a lesser hornless form of morris, they are also almost extinct due to this evil practice. rituals are considered tasty eating by some and often found in supermarkets gourmet section. the labour party has vowed to ban these evil gatherings.

the leader of this gang has just been knocked over by a concerned hero of PETA.


oh, when will the horror cease?

i see ebay still sells polyester fur clothing in spite of the protests by concerned liberals everywhere, oh the humanity!

[fearn]

Hi Ariel,

I happen to agree with Atlantia on this.

If the news article is correct, the US has the biggest black market for endangered species material, primarily ivory, and eBay is the biggest vendor for these products. Therefore, if one wants to conserve elephants, targeting illegal ivory sales on eBay makes sense from a conservation standpoint.

EBay seems to be saying (probably correctly) that they have substantial trouble distinguishing legal from illegal ivory sales, and so they're banning them all, except in cases where it's a trivial amount of ivory, and it's unlikely to be contributing to the current conservation problems. I almost hate to say it, but that's a reasonable strategy for them.

I'd also point out that helps to differentiate between the mainstream conservation groups and the extremists. The mainstream groups have learned the hard way to be pretty pragmatic about getting results. The extremists tend to have a more absolutist policies. The mainstream groups are generally willing to talk and negotiate.

If you want to get angry, you might want to target those who are running the illegal ivory and endangered species markets. They're the ones who are messing things up for the rest of us, and without them, we wouldn't need CITES. Blaming eBay is a bit like blaming a mall for hiring rent-a-cops to chase the gangbangers away.

F

[asomotif]

But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off.

Personally I have made several complaints about new ''artifacts" that were offered as antique and were made of CITES endangered species.
Not 1 single listing was removed, and I also never received an answer from ebay.
I even once asked a question to CITES about there policy towards ebay and never recieved a supply.
Protecting animals probabaly has a lot to do with politics.

As for ebay banning ivory, politics again. Maybe something to do with stock holders. I am quite sure that selling ivory netsuke from China combined with the (also not allowed) high shippingcharges will continue. with or without ban.

Lets take our own responsibillity and try to avoid buying new ivory objects.
And yes, i am only human and might be tempted, but lets do our best

[Tim Simmons]

Great pictures. It is an old thing many suppressed and confident "military by numbers" people encouraged martial training through dance. Here it is completely neutralised. They had fun, possibly to many drinks.

[A. G. Maisey]

The world does not begin and end with ebay.

So what if they ban ivory sales?

Ivory sales have been banned in so many places for so long that this is just another minor annoyance--- and not just ivory sales, in some places and some instances, possession of ivory.

Prior to the CITES restrictions on ivory sales, specifically during the 1970's, ivory keris hilts could be bought in Indonesia for around the same price as wooden keris hilts, price of either depended on quality of workmanship and age, not so much on the material.

Guess what has happened to the price of ivory since the very wise CITES bans came into force?

Yeah, that's right:- same thing as happened to the price of alcohol during prohibition.

Want to push prices up?

BAN IT!!!

As for the protection of elephants, well, anyone notice beef cattle dying out?

Nope.

Why?

Because beef cattle have a use.

Since the ivory bans what has happened with poaching of ivory?

Do elephants have any use at all, except to make some of us---me included---feel good?

I'm all in favour of ensuring that elephants do not die out. I like elephants. Big, impressive, almost human in some respects---not that that is necessarily a recommendation---but yeah, elephants are good guys. Lets make sure they don't all get killed.

But this new age ratbag approach of the tree huggers and kangaroo cuddlers of banning the trade in ivory is simply not defensible in the long term on any logical or rational basis.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The world does not begin and end with ebay.

So what if they ban ivory sales?

Ivory sales have been banned in so many places for so long that this is just another minor annoyance--- and not just ivory sales, in some places and some instances, possession of ivory.

Prior to the CITES restrictions on ivory sales, specifically during the 1970's, ivory keris hilts could be bought in Indonesia for around the same price as wooden keris hilts, price of either depended on quality of workmanship and age, not so much on the material.

Guess what has happened to the price of ivory since the very wise CITES bans came into force?

Yeah, that's right:- same thing as happened to the price of alcohol during prohibition.

Want to push prices up?

BAN IT!!!

As for the protection of elephants, well, anyone notice beef cattle dying out?

Nope.

Why?

Because beef cattle have a use.

Since the ivory bans what has happened with poaching of ivory?

Do elephants have any use at all, except to make some of us---me included---feel good?

I'm all in favour of ensuring that elephants do not die out. I like elephants. Big, impressive, almost human in some respects---not that that is necessarily a recommendation---but yeah, elephants are good guys. Lets make sure they don't all get killed.

But this new age ratbag approach of the tree huggers and kangaroo cuddlers of banning the trade in ivory is simply not defensible in the long term on any logical or rational basis.

The banning of Ivory already HAS made a huge difference to the numbers of elephant stocks. In many countries where the ban has been for the most part successfully enforced, Elephant populations have boomed in recent years.
But there is still a market for ivory, especially in the faked/reproduction antiques trade, and it IS growing.
That should be a huge concern to every one of us for several reasons.

A significant (perhaps the main) market for illegally poached Ivory is China, and a significant market for the products produced from that illegally poached ivory are internet auction sites selling to western collectors.
If you could tell me 'hand on heart' that every piece of Ivory on eBay that is described as a 'genuine antique' or that comes with a piece of paper from a dealer stating it is 'pre ban' really IS legal, then there would be no problem.
But you know that is not the case.

Of course eBays decision willl not end the trade.
Just as the existing ban hasn't done so over the last 25 years.
But to draw the conclusion that such bans are not worth the effort because they are not 100% effective is simply ridiculous. They are a continuing fight, and if ebay feel that they cannot effectively differentiate between legal and illegal Ivory on their site, then they are doing the right thing by banning it all.

As has been said, I find it hard to believe that they will effectively enforce this new rule, but amongst their furball of mystifying decisions and 'thou shalt not' rules, this is generally a good one.

I think Ivory is a beautiful material, I love antiques and recognise and understand (albeit with some sadness) the use of endangered animal parts in antique items of extreme cultural significance and historic importance.
But despite this fact, there simply can be no comparison between the need for conservation of entire species and the needs of a handful of collectors.
We are not talking about a ban on ownership of genuine antiques, or their enforced destruction, just a measure being introduced to continue to combat a continuing destructive trade stemming from what is an indefensible practice.

Yes genuine collectors of real antiques will suffer a little. But the significance of every piece of ivory in every manmade antique from the Chryselephantine statues of the classical world to Steinway pianos and every piece of netsuke inbetween is absolutely NIL compared to the survival of an entire species.


I respect your right to disagree with this ban, and from your comments it seems you may even disagree with ANY ban on the sale of ivory?
But of all the angles that you could have chosen for objection, your argument that 'bans' dont do any good is simply wrong and your rather personal comments about those who support conservation: 'ratbag approach of the tree huggers and kangaroo cuddlers' is frankly offensive to me.

I sincerely hope those were hasty words on your part.

Reagrds
Gene

[CourseEight]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Guess what has happened to the price of ivory since the very wise CITES bans came into force?

Yeah, that's right:- same thing as happened to the price of alcohol during prohibition.

Want to push prices up?

BAN IT!!!

As for the protection of elephants, well, anyone notice beef cattle dying out?

Nope.

Why?

Because beef cattle have a use.

Since the ivory bans what has happened with poaching of ivory?

My $0.02:

This argument would seem to imply that the ban of ivory has in some way created additional incentive to kill elephants, and that if we treated elephants the same way we did cattle, we could have our elephants and *ahem* kill them too. Quite simply, if the market existed for this to be true, it would have been done. The fact is that ivory is not a necessity, and so has a much smaller market to sell too than food like beef. Further, the lack of domestication combined with the enormity of these animals would make it fiscally untenable to do so. Which is why animals such as these were hunted to near extinction in the first place: they are profitable enough to hunt, but not to farm. As for the cost increase in banned items, well, of course the cost increases, since the risk associated with the aquisition is greater. But the reason these bans work is that there is a much smaller percentage of people willing to take the larger risk associated with illegal activity.

There are reserves in Africa, I'm told, where the elephant population has grown to the point where it actually has to be controlled through hunting. The time may come when other elephant populations will be in a similar situation, and at that time these bans can be lifted (under strict hunting supervision). But the notion that the free market will somehow save the elephants on its own, or that elephants aren't worth saving if the market doesn't save them, simply doesn't hold water with me.