E-Bay bans all ivory sales!

katana · 22nd October 2008, 02:31 AM

I would assume that eBay use an automatic 'search engine'....to search for listings using "ivory" in the description/title. I have seen a number of weapons described as having iv*ry.........ivorry ....and ivery ...so either speeling isn't their strong point (

) or some sellers have the need to hide the 'word' already.
It suggests to me that a 'coded' form of 'ivory' will be used. Sellers would want you to know that it was more than 'mere' bone. Only trouble would be that if a dishonest seller gave you the impression (within the listing) using perhaps, the 'coded' word....that a sword was ivory hilted. Only for the buyer to discover that it was bone......you would have no re-dress through paypal for a refund. Plus the fact you would surely have to prove that the 'code work', say, for instance 'white bone', actually meant 'ivory'., if you tried other means to obtain a refund

Regards David

Atlantia · 22nd October 2008, 01:41 PM

I have mixed feelings about this.
It is far more defensible a decision on ebays part that sooooooo many others they've made.
I mean the list is literally endless.
The debacle about curved swords and Katanas, whilst continuing to allow millions of 'fantasy' knives when their own rules expressly forbid knives designed for combat.
Allowing an endless array of deadly items whilst banning antique guns.
No crossbows but bows are Ok, no BB guns but you can buy broadhead hunting arrows.

But the question of Ivory....
Well, there is still a thriving trade in China for illegally procured Ivory to supply western markets with faked antiques. Thats a good enough reason to try and stamp it out I think.
There's no point in continuing the system as is due to the huge amount of abuse and circumvention.
As David says though, it will have to be rigorously policed!

On a happy note though, Pesh-Kabz are nicer with stone handles!
;-)

ariel · 22nd October 2008, 02:50 PM

What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle).
But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika...
I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else?
Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)?
Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)?
There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances.
Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

Rick · 22nd October 2008, 03:11 PM

Sort of a fly-swatter/shotgun approach to Ivory on their part .

Don't worry, things can only get worse .

Atlantia · 22nd October 2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle).
But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika...
I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else?
Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)?
Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)?
There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances.
Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species.

Soon (in the UK) the government will tighten the laws on bladed weapons (specifically to target cheap imported Chinese combat style knives) even though most fatal stabbings in the UK are committed with kitchen knives. I have no doubt that at that time ebay.uk will ban the sale of bladed weapons entirely.

Royston · 22nd October 2008, 03:46 PM

Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species.

Atlantia,

I am with you on this.

Royston

PS
I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

kronckew · 22nd October 2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

....

PS
I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

oh, the horror, the poor morrises, how they have been mistreated by the evil englanders, being belled and danced to the point of distinction, and then being hit with them sticky things. why it's as shocking as all them poor polyesters that died to provide someone with a polyester fur coat - there oughta be a law! this could never happen in california.

here we have an evil gang of morris dancers in their traditional gang colours, the remains of a poor morris are on the wall above them.

here we have another, note the variation in their evil gang oriented clothing, this group being armed to the teeth with cudgels, knobkerries and other weapons of mass morris destruction. note the organization of these indoctrinated and practiced evildoers as they head smiling for yet another morris termination.

and here we have a northern variant, the yorkshire longsword morris dancers, armed with their evil and soon to be banned longswords, heading for a ritual decapitation. the poor ritual, a lesser hornless form of morris, they are also almost extinct due to this evil practice. rituals are considered tasty eating by some and often found in supermarkets gourmet section. the labour party has vowed to ban these evil gatherings.

the leader of this gang has just been knocked over by a concerned hero of PETA.

oh, when will the horror cease?

i see ebay still sells polyester fur clothing in spite of the protests by concerned liberals everywhere, oh the humanity!

fearn · 22nd October 2008, 05:14 PM

Hi Ariel,

I happen to agree with Atlantia on this.

If the news article is correct, the US has the biggest black market for endangered species material, primarily ivory, and eBay is the biggest vendor for these products. Therefore, if one wants to conserve elephants, targeting illegal ivory sales on eBay makes sense from a conservation standpoint.

EBay seems to be saying (probably correctly) that they have substantial trouble distinguishing legal from illegal ivory sales, and so they're banning them all, except in cases where it's a trivial amount of ivory, and it's unlikely to be contributing to the current conservation problems. I almost hate to say it, but that's a reasonable strategy for them.

I'd also point out that helps to differentiate between the mainstream conservation groups and the extremists. The mainstream groups have learned the hard way to be pretty pragmatic about getting results. The extremists tend to have a more absolutist policies. The mainstream groups are generally willing to talk and negotiate.

If you want to get angry, you might want to target those who are running the illegal ivory and endangered species markets. They're the ones who are messing things up for the rest of us, and without them, we wouldn't need CITES. Blaming eBay is a bit like blaming a mall for hiring rent-a-cops to chase the gangbangers away.

F

asomotif · 22nd October 2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off.

Personally I have made several complaints about new ''artifacts" that were offered as antique and were made of CITES endangered species.
Not 1 single listing was removed, and I also never received an answer from ebay.
I even once asked a question to CITES about there policy towards ebay and never recieved a supply.
Protecting animals probabaly has a lot to do with politics.

As for ebay banning ivory, politics again. Maybe something to do with stock holders. I am quite sure that selling ivory netsuke from China combined with the (also not allowed) high shippingcharges will continue. with or without ban.

Lets take our own responsibillity and try to avoid buying new ivory objects.
And yes, i am only human and might be tempted, but lets do our best

22nd October 2008, 03:11 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	IMO Sort of a fly-swatter/shotgun approach to Ivory on their part . Don't worry, things can only get worse .

22nd October 2008, 03:46 PM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Ebay Bans Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species. Atlantia, I am with you on this. Royston PS I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

22nd October 2008, 02:31 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I would assume that eBay use an automatic 'search engine'....to search for listings using "ivory" in the description/title. I have seen a number of weapons described as having iv*ry.........ivorry ....and ivery ...so either speeling isn't their strong point ( ) or some sellers have the need to hide the 'word' already. It suggests to me that a 'coded' form of 'ivory' will be used. Sellers would want you to know that it was more than 'mere' bone. Only trouble would be that if a dishonest seller gave you the impression (within the listing) using perhaps, the 'coded' word....that a sword was ivory hilted. Only for the buyer to discover that it was bone......you would have no re-dress through paypal for a refund. Plus the fact you would surely have to prove that the 'code work', say, for instance 'white bone', actually meant 'ivory'., if you tried other means to obtain a refund Regards David

22nd October 2008, 01:41 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I have mixed feelings about this. It is far more defensible a decision on ebays part that sooooooo many others they've made. I mean the list is literally endless. The debacle about curved swords and Katanas, whilst continuing to allow millions of 'fantasy' knives when their own rules expressly forbid knives designed for combat. Allowing an endless array of deadly items whilst banning antique guns. No crossbows but bows are Ok, no BB guns but you can buy broadhead hunting arrows. But the question of Ivory.... Well, there is still a thriving trade in China for illegally procured Ivory to supply western markets with faked antiques. Thats a good enough reason to try and stamp it out I think. There's no point in continuing the system as is due to the huge amount of abuse and circumvention. As David says though, it will have to be rigorously policed! On a happy note though, Pesh-Kabz are nicer with stone handles! ;-)

22nd October 2008, 02:50 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle). But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika... I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else? Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)? Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)? There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances. Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

22nd October 2008, 05:14 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, I happen to agree with Atlantia on this. If the news article is correct, the US has the biggest black market for endangered species material, primarily ivory, and eBay is the biggest vendor for these products. Therefore, if one wants to conserve elephants, targeting illegal ivory sales on eBay makes sense from a conservation standpoint. EBay seems to be saying (probably correctly) that they have substantial trouble distinguishing legal from illegal ivory sales, and so they're banning them all, except in cases where it's a trivial amount of ivory, and it's unlikely to be contributing to the current conservation problems. I almost hate to say it, but that's a reasonable strategy for them. I'd also point out that helps to differentiate between the mainstream conservation groups and the extremists. The mainstream groups have learned the hard way to be pretty pragmatic about getting results. The extremists tend to have a more absolutist policies. The mainstream groups are generally willing to talk and negotiate. If you want to get angry, you might want to target those who are running the illegal ivory and endangered species markets. They're the ones who are messing things up for the rest of us, and without them, we wouldn't need CITES. Blaming eBay is a bit like blaming a mall for hiring rent-a-cops to chase the gangbangers away. F