Takouba for coments ... and a question

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Martin,
Thank you for responding to my post, very much appreciated!
I was thinking pretty much the same thing so I'm glad you agree on the possibility of the assimilation of the term. As a point of illustration, the Mexican language has many terms and words from other languages such as French, Native American and others into slang added to Spanish. American is of course a vast amalgam of loan words added to English with many others as well.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
Sorry for taking so long in thanking your posting with the treatise in takoubas. It happens that i got envolved with your question on the takouba term origin, ande decided to do some browsing on the subject. Amazing how i have found out you have been trying to solve this riddle since the last eight years.
Well, there is no term equal or similar, or even sounding close to takouba in both Portuguese and Spanish modern dictionaries.
On the other hand, we can see through various historians quotations that the term 'tacuba' in Mexico already existed by the time Cortez got there. In fact Tacuba was a local kingdom, on the western mountains of the valley of Mexico, whose monarch had made a triple alliance with two other nobles,Tetzcoco and Tenochtitlan, to massacre the Spaniards. I don't either think that it was the Spaniards that brought the term from Mexico and later drop it in the Sahara; this assuming that the term is not an original Tuareg word. Meanwhile i have spotted a book that sounds as it could clarify the situation, for those deeply commited in going to the ultimate step with this riddle, as it contains an essay on these swords, namely on their 'nomenclature' ... for what this means.

http://siris-libraries.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=full=3100001~!761584!0#focus

Back to my takouba example, i see that you didn't coment on the short length of the handle; was it because nothing occurs to you on the subject ? Also in the mean time i have read that Tuareg youngsters could gain a takouba by the time of their puberty.
Concerning the age of both blade and sheath, XIX century for the blade suits me fine; however XX century for the sheath leaves me a bit sad, as i am 'alergic' to modern stuff. In fact i have read in Lee Jones article that hardly takouba sheaths may be found with a long age, due to their quick degradation. Even so, i hope my example is quite old within possible, that is, from the early times of the XX century. I am based in the fact that its leather material has shrunk so much that, even inserting the blade with some mussle, a good 3,3 cms. (almost 1 3/8") remain unsheathable. Also worthy of note is the (one surviving) elaborated suspension ring, made in decorated brass, with an interesting patina, instead of those in aluminum, a detail quoted in Dr. Lee Jones's article to indicate a mid XX century solution.
Kind regards
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Always my pleasure Fernando! especially when you respond in kind, and I thank you for the detail on the word Takuba, and its use in the New World. The information you have provided is far more clearly, than I have been afforded in these past years. I have seen the reference you note listed, and even think it might be in my very inaccessible files, and though it is of course in French, might be somewhat readable. I do know that the word Takouba is in Tuareg glossaries, but without etymology details.

My lack of comment on the handle was an oversight, and it does seem that many of these do have unusually small handles. It does seem that native individuals did have smaller hands in many tribal regions, though that argument for small handles has met with great debate in the tulwar case. In looking at clothing, shoes and all manner of apparal of earlier times, it does seem people were smaller (heaven knows I could never get into my high school clothes!). I just read an article on the pgymies, and much notation on nutrition, lack of certain vitamins, diet etc. which accounts for thier size.

I think the smaller size hilt may suggest earlier 20th century, as well as the brass ring etc., you do present a good case, but I wouldnt go earlier than about the 30's. It really is hard to say, as it doesnt take long for leather to draw tight, even without being in the elements in the desert.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I think the smaller size hilt may suggest earlier 20th century, as well as the brass ring etc., you do present a good case, but I wouldnt go earlier than about the 30's. It really is hard to say, as it doesnt take long for leather to draw tight, even without being in the elements in the desert ...

Well, you can't win them all .
Thanks a lot for your impressions, Jim.
Fernando

[katana]

Hi Fernando ,
Takouba and Kaskara tend to be re-hilted / re-sheathed fairly regularly. My understanding is that, locally, there is no interest or prestige in 'old' hilts, if its worn out ...they are replaced. However sometimes older brass/copper crossguards and pommels are re-used, if undamaged.

On that basis it is the blade that is the determining factor. The fullers can be an indicator of age....more recent ones are almost all ground...not forged. Many more recent Takouba tend to be very thin and springy.....as vehicle 'leaf springs' are often used and re-cycled. Crossguards and the handles are often made from sheet metal, again often re-cycled from scrap. I have seen one where the leather covering had come away revealing an old 'Shell Oil' logo (possibly 1950's).
It seems that older blades tend to be 'thicker'.......why more recent ones are quite thin ..I do not know....unless it is that they are now only regarded as a 'dress item'.

As a footnote, I have also noticed many blades are heavily scratched....I wonder whether sand is used as an abrasive cleaner

Kind Regards David

[Lee]

Fernando, that is a nice takouba you have there. The details on the pommel are a bit different than I have seen before. I believe that this one does have some age to it, though I am not yet skilled enough to discern late 19th from early 20th century against regional variations. The blade looks to be a European import from the moon marks, if it is very springy this would corroborate the impression of European origin. A nice example that I'd not hesitate to add to my own collection...

Originally Posted by katana

Takouba and Kaskara tend to be re-hilted / re-sheathed fairly regularly. My understanding is that, locally, there is no interest or prestige in 'old' hilts, if its worn out ...they are replaced.

The takouba at the top of the page is my 'newest' takouba and at the same instant also my 'oldest' takouba. The mountings are from within the last decade, the European blade is very possibly 17th century and like one of those depicted in Briggs.

I believe the attitude noted above reflects that the sword is still "alive" within that culture, rather than merely an antique curiosity, as is the case with so many of the old weapons we enjoy. If we had an excuse to wear our favorite swords out and about every day, I suspect we also be inclined to keep the mounts up to date and in good repair. I must admit that I would.

Originally Posted by katana

As a footnote, I have also noticed many blades are heavily scratched....I wonder whether sand is used as an abrasive cleaner.

I actually know the answer to this as it was demonstrated to me one night around the campfire, I believe by one of the drivers, who was delighted by the quality of the springy (European) blade of a takouba I had bought in Agadez at the start of the journey. A rounded (desert weathered) stone is used in one hand to hone the blade, grinding parallel to the length of the blade which is held with the other hand over the lap, the blade's tip flat on the side of the foot. This was not a special stone, though I was told favorite stones were kept to be re-used, but merely one picked up after a brief search in the area, which fit the hand well and appeared to be something like quartz.

I kept the stone and the takouba remains a favorite; again an older blade fairly recently remounted. The blue arrows show where the patina of the stone was disturbed by its use to sharpen the sword. The mounts are fairly modern and dressy, but it was the quality of the blade which was delighting our expedition's staff.

[fernando]

Hi David, thank you for your impressions.
I see that Lee has comented your post on the points he found worthy of note; i don't think i can add much to the remaining parts of your input, except that i will pray to the Gods to avoid me uncovering the leather work of my example and get acquainted with some oil company publicity
One point i might yet raise about the grooves; would it be possible/plausible that in some cases blades be acquired from trade sources (imported or so) with flat faces, and later have the three grooves ground, to follow local takouba tradition ?

Thanks a lot Lee, for your experienced clarifications. It's quite comforting to know that you wouldn't desdain from joining this takouba to your collection.
I wouldn't know how to judge its blade temper (spring) propperties, but i find that it offers some reasonable resistence to bending, as also it allways keeps its complete straightness, contrary to several blades one finds out there.
I had read in your article how those guys sharpen these blades; i see that you keep with pleasure the stone they gave you, but i must say i was delighted with the tea glass sharpening system.
I can see that my example appears to have sharpening marks made by distinct resources ; i wonder if those dots were made by a less rural device.

Fernando

.