Sundang, moro kris or whatelse?

David · 30th September 2008, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang

Nice word "nyepuhan". I believe it refers to the temper mark left by quenching. I don't really see such a mark in the first kris shown here. Are you referring to this lastest kris Flavio posted? The mark is clear there, but that is not the kris which is under discussion.
I really don't know what can possibly be judged from the "kembang kacang" in this case as it is far too eroded to make a call on.
I have also seen this style of scabbard with Sulu kris.
I don't see anything here that would clearly indicate a peninsula origin.

Rick · 30th September 2008, 04:02 PM

I'm still wondering if that's a scarf, or lap weld on the original blade .

Could we see the other side please ?

I don't recall, in my own experience, ever seeing a scarf weld on a sundang blade .

Flavio · 30th September 2008, 06:21 PM

Hi Rick,

On the other side there is a similar sign, soon I will post some pics.

Thanks

Flavio · 30th September 2008, 06:30 PM

David,

You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle? I ask just to know

Regards
Flavio

Bill · 30th September 2008, 07:33 PM

Flavio, It' different but the pics don't tell the whole story, at least for me.
First you have to figure what was original to the sword & I would guess nothing.
The scabbard is top grade but I doubt it's very close to be as old as the sword. It looks to me as Bugis/Malay.
I'm not sure about the blade itself. Could it be that it was over-cleaned with some sort of acid or chemicals?
The stirrup & metal rings look fairly new. If someone carried that sword everyday they would be dented/scraped.
Surprised there is not more opinions on the hilt pommel. I don't think it's horn, but I don't know what type of Ivory. Some sort of tooth? It looks like it broke, was repaired & filled; then stained to make the repairs less noticed.

Flavio · 30th September 2008, 08:33 PM

Thank you Bill! For sure the pommel was restored, there is some kind of putty... What I'd like to know is if also the rest of the handle is restored/replaced since a handle of horn is very strange for an "original" moro, but if it was from another place than could be original.... Anyway the collar around the pommel shows some losses, I will post some pics.

Thanks
FLavio

spiral · 1st October 2008, 12:27 AM

I know nothing about these blades or even the scabbard timber origins but looking at the Schreger angles the pommel is 100% Elephant ivory definatly not mamooth or any form of sea tooth..

Spiral

David · 1st October 2008, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle?

As for the blade Flavio it just looks like abuse and someone's perhaps misguided attempt to "restore" it. Can't speak for the hilt being horn. Could be a later addition, a marriage that is not quite traditional. A replacement. Who knows. The ivory pommel looks Moro to me though and as Spiral has pointed out, the reason there have not been more opinions on it is that it is pretty obvious even to me that it is 100% elephant ivory. A few have mentioned that they think the sheath is peninsula or Bugis in origin, but i am pretty sure i have seen this type of sheath used by the Moro and i also think that the toe of the sheath stem has a distinct Moro termination.
How is the fit of the blade in the sheath anyway? Was this sheath made for this blade?

Flavio · 4th October 2008, 07:16 PM

Here are some pics of both sides of the blade, the putty on the pommel and the fit with the scabbard

Battara · 5th October 2008, 01:40 AM

Flavio,

These pictures now give me the impression that this is not horn but something over the wood. IT can fool and look like horn. Again, I would say that twisted silver or jute was there originally.....

Flavio · 5th October 2008, 08:58 AM

Jose,

maybe the "horn" is somethng different, but for sure is not the putty that you can see where the pommel meets the handle. I can't be able to find the mineral spirit you told me. Can I use something else to see if the handle and the pommel were stained? Maybe another kind of diluent?

Thanks
FLavio

Flavio · 5th October 2008, 11:56 AM

Well, I have used a strong diluent (nitro) both on the pommel and the handle. Nothing is changed, so both were not stained and the color is due to the patination.

4th October 2008, 07:16 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Here are some pics of both sides of the blade, the putty on the pommel and the fit with the scabbard Attached Images

30th September 2008, 04:02 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I'm still wondering if that's a scarf, or lap weld on the original blade . Could we see the other side please ? I don't recall, in my own experience, ever seeing a scarf weld on a sundang blade .

30th September 2008, 06:21 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Rick, On the other side there is a similar sign, soon I will post some pics. Thanks

30th September 2008, 06:30 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	David, You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle? I ask just to know Regards Flavio

30th September 2008, 07:33 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Flavio, It' different but the pics don't tell the whole story, at least for me. First you have to figure what was original to the sword & I would guess nothing. The scabbard is top grade but I doubt it's very close to be as old as the sword. It looks to me as Bugis/Malay. I'm not sure about the blade itself. Could it be that it was over-cleaned with some sort of acid or chemicals? The stirrup & metal rings look fairly new. If someone carried that sword everyday they would be dented/scraped. Surprised there is not more opinions on the hilt pommel. I don't think it's horn, but I don't know what type of Ivory. Some sort of tooth? It looks like it broke, was repaired & filled; then stained to make the repairs less noticed.

30th September 2008, 08:33 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Bill! For sure the pommel was restored, there is some kind of putty... What I'd like to know is if also the rest of the handle is restored/replaced since a handle of horn is very strange for an "original" moro, but if it was from another place than could be original.... Anyway the collar around the pommel shows some losses, I will post some pics. Thanks FLavio

1st October 2008, 12:27 AM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I know nothing about these blades or even the scabbard timber origins but looking at the Schreger angles the pommel is 100% Elephant ivory definatly not mamooth or any form of sea tooth.. Spiral

5th October 2008, 01:40 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Flavio, These pictures now give me the impression that this is not horn but something over the wood. IT can fool and look like horn. Again, I would say that twisted silver or jute was there originally.....

5th October 2008, 08:58 AM	#11
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Jose, maybe the "horn" is somethng different, but for sure is not the putty that you can see where the pommel meets the handle. I can't be able to find the mineral spirit you told me. Can I use something else to see if the handle and the pommel were stained? Maybe another kind of diluent? Thanks FLavio

5th October 2008, 11:56 AM	#12
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well, I have used a strong diluent (nitro) both on the pommel and the handle. Nothing is changed, so both were not stained and the color is due to the patination.