Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you Vandoo.

In fact Japan has the National Living Treasure and it also applies to sword makers and other crafts.

Portugal also has a program through the Gulbenkian Foundation but it does not apply to sword making and this art has disappeared in Portugal.

[tom hyle]

Many if not most large sovereign polities (ie "countries" etc.) have such programs, though not as extensive etc. as the Japanese one. I don't know that these are at all the way to preserve real traditions, though, but more, as I see happen in institution after institution, some (usually dogmatized, of course) institutional concept of them. A great example is "Western" academia/music establishment trying to study the blues; trying to define it and ending up saying things like "the blues is a 12 bar music in key X with repetitive themes.....(etc.)" which prompted Willie Dixon to say "That is a white, college definition of the blues....(and thus not at all valid or useful to actually understanding the blues which must be understood from the inside; the inside is a culture that doesn't have "bars" or "keys" in the "Western" sense, yet Euro/academic culture talks as if they have defined it and confined it with their foriegn terms, their nonunderstanding outside definition, which in practical reality is used to say this or that is not "real" blues.)" A bit unclear, perhaps, but my concern over this sort of institutionalization of knowledge, etc. Also, I say, as always, that weapon cutlery is a living art, and its supposed obsolescence is an "over-culture" (mis)perception, and is "news" to a great number of living working cutlers, living martial artists, and ordinary people who are sword owners.

[Gt Obach]

I thought japan had a sort of tradition of "deadly elegance"..... and that you could be summoned by the ruler to prove your steel (or lose your head)

-it could be that you need the formative levels of sword culture before society will embrace the idea of a "national treasure".
-I see the "National treasure" idea as the pinnacle of the institution.... now what were the roots or seeds that grew?
- my point is that you can't build a pyramid by starting at the top.... I would think you need a good base..... and if the base is already there.....then progress can be nudged along !!

say in the instance of the patternweld keris blades..... it seems that they're smiths still use the old ways... and they're still part of the culture and beliefs....
-- i would think that a national treasure idea could take hold here... ?

oh well.... just thought i'd throw some ideas out there.... bout the infrastructure of such an institution


Greg

[tom hyle]

And mind you, not neccessarily government sponsorship, but over-culture/academic interest of some type is often the only thing (other than certain layers in the soil ) that ends up preserving any knowledge about a thing. However, a surprising amount of knowledge often lives at a folkloric level that is often unfortuneately dismissed by over culture experts as "legend" urban or otherwise, as not presented in the proper way by the proper person to suit the rules of that tribe, or as "not real blues (bowie knife, Japanese sword, insert category) because it doesn't fit our definition." Also, it does seem to me there is an insidiousness in the way it does its preserving; by replacing deep and broad genuine and ancient traditions with its often shallow and outside understanding gleaned from studying a subject with a (relatively) few socially designated experts for perhaps a matter of a few decades, or at very most the two or three centuries in which the overculture has been at the point of advancement (in its own terms; wealth and magic, mostly) to have begun to take more of an interest in other cultures than what can be gotten from them in direct material or economic terms and how.

[Mark]

This is actually a rather depressing issue. Traditional crafts, and dare I say pride in the craftsmanship per se, often gets dropped in favor of commercial considerations. As Antonio said, quantity over quality. I doubt that this is a conscious choice by the craftsment, but they have to feed themselves and their families. This is where some sort of institutional support would be of great benefit. The time was in Burma, Thailand and Laos (and I am sure other places, but these are the ones I happen to know a little about), it was royal patronage that kept the top-quality craftsmanship alive, essentially by commissioning and buying regular amounts of the stuff. Now, there are no patrons, and so the craftsman is left with little choice but to follow the actual market, which in the case of something like sword crafting is the tourist or martial arts market. Neither has much need for quality, aside from pleasing looks, and even then the standards can be pretty low.

From what I know about Aranyik, the people of that town gave their lives defending a strategically critical resource (the weapons industry, including the smiths themselves), during the last and most devastating Burmese invasion, fighting to the last while the capital surrendered. I should think that would merit some acknowledgement of the people, and the craft for which they sacrificed themselves. Perhaps this is an avenue by which to propose some sort of cultural heritage program to support the traditional (and quality) craft of sword making, at least in Thailand.

Of course, sword crafting is not the only industry to suffer. In Burma certain schools of ivory carving have completely died out for lack of patronage, and now their styles only survive through the work of imitators without a direct link to the tradition. Other schools remain, but are not what they once were in terms of quality.

I wish that I had an answer, but this is something that must come from within a culture, as Tom said, though outside help would certainly make it grow stronger once it has started.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

This is actually a rather depressing issue. Traditional crafts, and dare I say pride in the craftsmanship per se, often gets dropped in favor of commercial considerations. As Antonio said, quantity over quality. I doubt that this is a conscious choice by the craftsment, but they have to feed themselves and their families.

I wish that I had an answer, but this is something that must come from within a culture, as Tom said, though outside help would certainly make it grow stronger once it has started.

Mark, You must've posted at the same time as my imediately previous post (to thhis one). I so agree with and am moved by all you've said here that I've paused in reading the thread to reply. Actually most craftsmen are intensly aware of the dichotomy of pulls on both the quality/true traditional fanciness of our work, and on the subjects of our work (ex will I make a superb traditional dha with hundreds of hours of carving on an incredibly finely polished and intricate hilt, that it will be very hard to find someone who can afford, or will I make a bunch of simpler, perhaps even lower quality in using terms, ones that I can readily sell all I make of? It's the issue of what artists call "selling out", and of course, in the real world, it is what many have to do to survive, while a few of great strength and vitality can outproduce and somehow outshine society's disaproval or unwillingness to pay for the heavy costs of true fine fine traditional tradional hand processes, and a few particularly skillful, personable artists using particularly socially accepted methods (and the occasional though very rare, actual non-scene outsider) get rich and famous, making fance, which has dictates, too, and limitting ones; mostly of style, fads, what have you, etc., rather than of cost, although some of the very fancy stuff I've seen made had all sorts of "cut corner" penny pinchingness evident, often particularly when it comes to "field" usefulness. oh, the art and craftsmanship market is a wild thing. I did a bunch of work in fancy custom wood and paint (too much for my health though), you definitely get a perspective; the issue is very much on the minds of many craftsmen; we talk with each other about it often, actually.

[tom hyle]

BTW, I don't know about Itally, but is there still Johan Schmiddberger (spelling?) in Austria(? I think?) ? I think he is underwritten on government supported, or at least recognized, and works at an ancient forge, AFAIK...................I had an "oh-no second" as I shut my computer down, but then I had to go help my sister paint her house; I don't know where I got Itally from; I think I thought Antonio was there....

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

A great example is "Western" academia/music establishment trying to study the blues; trying to define it and ending up saying things like "the blues is a 12 bar music in key X with repetitive themes.....(etc.)" which prompted Willie Dixon to say "That is a white, college definition of the blues....(and thus not at all valid or useful to actually understanding the blues which must be understood from the inside; the inside is a culture that doesn't have "bars" or "keys" in the "Western" sense, yet Euro/academic culture talks as if they have defined it and confined it with their foriegn terms, their nonunderstanding outside definition, which in practical reality is used to say this or that is not "real" blues.)" A bit unclear, perhaps, but my concern over this sort of institutionalization of knowledge, etc. Also, I say, as always, that weapon cutlery is a living art, and its supposed obsolescence is an "over-culture" (mis)perception, and is "news" to a great number of living working cutlers, living martial artists, and ordinary people who are sword owners.

I fully agree
Please note that my main intention is to bring about a constructive discussion about allowing things to exist through hybrid methods as blues itself know no bars but had records and now have CDs

[fearn]

Hi Antonio,

There are models other than the Living Treasures and national foundations. For instance:

I'd point to a phenomenon that has revived interest in the essentially dead western martial arts, and which has given birth to a large sword-making industry: the reenactment movement. Groups like the Society for Creative Anachronisms, Living History, etc. (including Civial War reenactors) have created multiple industries feeding their needs for accurate replicas, and for the materials to make them.

In places with an emergent middle class (parts of Thailand, Indonesia, PI, etc), encouraging reenactors might be a good way of encouraging people to get back into weapons making. This could be in the context of the Thai-Burmese wars (take your pick), the many conflicts within Indonesia, or PI, etc. Getting people interested in arming themselves as their ancestors did and restaging critical battles might not be entirely bad, especially if they keep the blades dull and the guns fire blanks ...

After all, if Americans can start the SCA from books (reviving an extinct martial tradition with some success) then it might be a lot easier in a place where the traditions are simply moribund.

I'd also point to the Himalayn Imports model (paying native smiths to make traditional blades for a largely foreign market) as another way to go.

My 0.02 cents,

Fearn

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings Fern,

Thanks for your contribution. I just raised the issue, have no solution though
But I guess what can work in a culture may not necessarily be the answer to another.

Tom is very right concerning the dangers of lack fo understanding between the outside and the inside. The outside being the extrinsic power(s) that could help but have no real and natural understanding of the inside thus running the risk of destroying something.
The reverse, not doing anything, is also watching something extinguishing itself, as Battara puts it concerning the Philippines.

I think what is on debate is how to help without spoiling. Is this possible with Museums work, conferences, etc?
I found that an exhibition organized in Macau 1999 or 2000 named The Fire and the Forgesaw 80 per cent of the swords sold on the first day and the rest on the second day. None of the people who bought them were collectors, and there were ladies among the buyers.

In other words, there is hope and a generous amount of people here is quite oepn and without prejudice. That is a good beginning

[VANDOO]

IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CRAFT TO JUDGE IT BE IT SWORDS OR CERAMICS. A KING MIGHT BE A POOR JUDGE OF BLACKSMITHING SO LET THE MASTER BLACKSMITHS JUDGE NOT THE ELITE. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE MAN IS JUDGED A NATIONAL TREASURE HIS WORKS MAY BE SOUGHT BUT HIS APPRENTICES HELD IN DISDAIN, SO WHEN THE MASTER PASSES THE APRENTICE MUST FIND OTHER WORK TO LIVE. IN ITALY THERE IS A VILLAGE CALLED PERENSANTIA (MAY HAVE MISPELLED) IT HAS BEEN A CENTER FOR FINE MARBLE CARVINGS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE OLD CARVERS WERE DIEING AND THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH YOUNG APPRENTICES TO REPLACE THEM. I READ ABOUT IT YEARS AGO SO DON'T KNOW IF THE TRADITION STILL GOES ON OR NOT. ANOTHER THING CUTTING BACK ON FINE ITALIAN MARBLE CARVINGS IS THE USE OF CAST STATUES AND CARVING FROM VERY SOFT ROCK THEN COATED TO REPLACE ERODED ARCHITECTUAL STATUARY. IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP A OLD CRAFT THAT IS STILL IN USE TODAY, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER PART OF THE TIMES GOING. VERY HIGH QUALITY EDGED WEAPONS AND ARMOR OF ALL KINDS COME TO MIND
ONE WAY TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING IS TO PROMOTE IT AND GENERATE A DEMAND AND MARKET FOR THE ITEM AND SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPERLY TRAINED AND QUALITY MANINTAINED. ANOTHER IS TO HAVE A CULTURAL TRADITION AND TO SEE THAT IT IS KEPT AND HONERED THROUGH THE YEARS, THE KERIS AND SAMURAI SWORDS COME TO MIND HERE.

[Mark]

Coincidentally, I was reading a book on Thai crafts today, and came across mention of the increase in patronage of the silverworking craftsmen by the royal family and the wealthier businessmen. It apparently has become a kind of "keeping up with the Jones," with businessment commissioning large decorated bowls and the like, and donating them to temples for prominant display. It was good to read that the wonderful Thai silversmiths were finding a way to fully express their talents. Maybe swords are next?