Spanish Rapiers, a Bilbo FYC.

Atlantia · 26th September 2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Wasn't Sahagun the name of The Shadows Weapon Factory Planet in "Babylon 5"?

: )

Me' self, I have never seen an original Sahagun blade. The one we have here is badly spelled: Samacum.

Cheers

M

Hey Manuel! B5 was a great show!!

LOL, that was Z'ha'dum! I've been watching seasons 3 and 4 over the last few days while working! Great series.

Where is the misspelt one? Can you post a pic or a link?

I assume mine is spelt correctly? Well assuming they were always spelt in latin?
the inscription on my blade is 'S A H A G V N' do we know if they used 'U' or 'V'?

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 28th September 2008, 05:55 PM

More a bump than anything else!
Just wanting to recap and try and decide if we've actually decided anything concrete about my sword?

So, it may not stricly be regarded as simply a Bilbo, not that bilbo is anything more than a victorian collectors term anyway, but you know what I mean.

So what would we call it?
'Spanish Rapier'?

The Blade Inscription purports to be the makers name and not the place of origin.

Some of its elements seem to indicate an early date, some a later date.

And thats it?

Gene

celtan · 28th September 2008, 06:50 PM

I would call it a "Period rapier made in the spanish style".
They often used V instead of U, but it should be pronounced U, and the latter is the correct spelling also.
Also, Bilbo is a connotation for a cheaply made sword made for export...
Best
Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

More a bump than anything else!
Just wanting to recap and try and decide if we've actually decided anything concrete about my sword?

So, it may not stricly be regarded as simply a Bilbo, not that bilbo is anything more than a victorian collectors term anyway, but you know what I mean.

So what would we call it?
'Spanish Rapier'?

The Blade Inscription purports to be the makers name and not the place of origin.

Some of its elements seem to indicate an early date, some a later date.

And thats it?

Gene

fernando · 28th September 2008, 06:59 PM

Some (most) times is easier to be told what specimens are not, than what they are. So many weapons are a mix of styles ... whether added within time or originaly intended by the maker. A significant quantity of my stuff falls into that area

.
It appears than in (Iberian) typology, you have the 'sword' as so called, belonging to 'military' universe and the 'rapier', that of 'civilian' development ... although also used by military, in determined contexts. Two (of the?) sympthoms which indicate that the piece is a rapier are, the blade being narrow (er), more vocationed to fencing and the knuckle bow being loose, and not screwed or welded to the pommel, a detail not neglectable in Ordnance combat examples.
So your specimen could be called a rapier, although with some military features like, i guess, its guard, typically called boca de caballo (horse mouth), as already mentioned here by the connoisseurs.
A couple forumites can tell you that this guard did not exist till the beg. XVIII century; therefore a pattern later than the (beg. XVII century?) grip. Then if you fix the grip date as being originaly assembled to the (imported blade), you will find that the Sahagun legend is not the maker's mark but an allegory to him, to add value to the blade. This way you could say that, basically, this is a XVII century rapier, with a later military type guard addition.
I don't beleive i dared to adventure giving a presumptious opinnion in such matters..
... Just forget it

Fernando

celtan · 28th September 2008, 08:19 PM

Hi Fer,

Nice summation!
A note though, the reason its called a boca de caballo is because the hilt/pas d'ane arrangement (sans the bivalve shell guard) united to a four holed table, looked like a period horse's bit.
I was until very recently of the belief that it was because head-on, the shell guard looked like an open horses mouth. Not so! Its the underneath framework that gives it its name.

Cosas veredes Sanxo...

: )

Manolo

fernando · 28th September 2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... Cosas veredes Sanxo ...

.

Pues no me lo diga, Don Manuel

Haven't i burned my brains trying to acomodate the vision of a horse mouth to the sword shell guard ?
We learn until we die.
Glad you told ... me ... and certainly others

Atlantia · 2nd October 2008, 01:36 PM

Excellent Thank-you Gentlemen.
I had actually not heard of the 'horses mouth' description before, but I can see it!
Do you have any thoughts on the flower designs?

Regards
Gene

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 03:24 PM

Margaritas/Sunflowers...

Holland?

Gonzalo G · 8th October 2008, 11:14 AM

Apart from both Sahagún, father and son, respectively Alonso de Sahagún or Sahagun el Viejo, and Luis de Sahagún, there was another Sahagún, Alonso de Sahagún el Jóven. All of them swordsmiths from Toledo. And all of them had a personal marking to identify their swords, apart from the inscription of their names. I don´t have registers of other Sahagún´s. It must be taken on account that there was also a "Sahagún School" they left for the posterity, so you can find swords from the Sahagún School, formally recognized as that by the scholars on this subject. For more references, please see this document from German Dueñas Beraiz, published in Gladius magazine:

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...viewFile/42/43

The markings of 99 swordsmiths form Toledo, including the Sahagún´s, can be seen in:

Claudio del Fraxno y Joaquín de Bouligny
Memoria Sobre la Teoría y Fabricación del Acero en General y de su Aplicación a las Armas Blancas,
Segovia, Imprenta de D. Eduardo Baeza,
1850

I agree with Jim. The blade seems not to be from those swordsmiths. But a very good piece anyway. Yes, to envy, Gene. Probably form Solingen.
My best regards

Gonzalo

fernando · 13th October 2008, 01:09 AM

Good material Gonzalo; thanks for sharing.
I've saved it.
Fernando

28th September 2008, 05:55 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	More a bump than anything else! Just wanting to recap and try and decide if we've actually decided anything concrete about my sword? So, it may not stricly be regarded as simply a Bilbo, not that bilbo is anything more than a victorian collectors term anyway, but you know what I mean. So what would we call it? 'Spanish Rapier'? The Blade Inscription purports to be the makers name and not the place of origin. Some of its elements seem to indicate an early date, some a later date. And thats it? Gene

28th September 2008, 06:59 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Some (most) times is easier to be told what specimens are not, than what they are. So many weapons are a mix of styles ... whether added within time or originaly intended by the maker. A significant quantity of my stuff falls into that area . It appears than in (Iberian) typology, you have the 'sword' as so called, belonging to 'military' universe and the 'rapier', that of 'civilian' development ... although also used by military, in determined contexts. Two (of the?) sympthoms which indicate that the piece is a rapier are, the blade being narrow (er), more vocationed to fencing and the knuckle bow being loose, and not screwed or welded to the pommel, a detail not neglectable in Ordnance combat examples. So your specimen could be called a rapier, although with some military features like, i guess, its guard, typically called boca de caballo (horse mouth), as already mentioned here by the connoisseurs. A couple forumites can tell you that this guard did not exist till the beg. XVIII century; therefore a pattern later than the (beg. XVII century?) grip. Then if you fix the grip date as being originaly assembled to the (imported blade), you will find that the Sahagun legend is not the maker's mark but an allegory to him, to add value to the blade. This way you could say that, basically, this is a XVII century rapier, with a later military type guard addition. I don't beleive i dared to adventure giving a presumptious opinnion in such matters.. ... Just forget it Fernando

28th September 2008, 08:19 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Fer, Nice summation! A note though, the reason its called a boca de caballo is because the hilt/pas d'ane arrangement (sans the bivalve shell guard) united to a four holed table, looked like a period horse's bit. I was until very recently of the belief that it was because head-on, the shell guard looked like an open horses mouth. Not so! Its the underneath framework that gives it its name. Cosas veredes Sanxo... : ) Manolo

2nd October 2008, 01:36 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Excellent Thank-you Gentlemen. I had actually not heard of the 'horses mouth' description before, but I can see it! Do you have any thoughts on the flower designs? Regards Gene

2nd October 2008, 03:24 PM	#8
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Margaritas/Sunflowers... Holland?

8th October 2008, 11:14 AM	#9
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Apart from both Sahagún, father and son, respectively Alonso de Sahagún or Sahagun el Viejo, and Luis de Sahagún, there was another Sahagún, Alonso de Sahagún el Jóven. All of them swordsmiths from Toledo. And all of them had a personal marking to identify their swords, apart from the inscription of their names. I don´t have registers of other Sahagún´s. It must be taken on account that there was also a "Sahagún School" they left for the posterity, so you can find swords from the Sahagún School, formally recognized as that by the scholars on this subject. For more references, please see this document from German Dueñas Beraiz, published in Gladius magazine: http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...viewFile/42/43 The markings of 99 swordsmiths form Toledo, including the Sahagún´s, can be seen in: Claudio del Fraxno y Joaquín de Bouligny Memoria Sobre la Teoría y Fabricación del Acero en General y de su Aplicación a las Armas Blancas, Segovia, Imprenta de D. Eduardo Baeza, 1850 I agree with Jim. The blade seems not to be from those swordsmiths. But a very good piece anyway. Yes, to envy, Gene. Probably form Solingen. My best regards Gonzalo

13th October 2008, 01:09 AM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good material Gonzalo; thanks for sharing. I've saved it. Fernando