a new member in my khanda family

dralin23 · 18th August 2008, 10:12 AM

thank you jim, tatjana
only short first answer. hat the web site from akaal arms you can find also an other khanda sword with an tulwar hilt . here are the link.http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/...khandB.html.in the description he said these sword is from the late 18.ct. the hilt should be older. i don´t know. what is your opinion??
regards, stefan

Tatyana Dianova · 18th August 2008, 12:36 PM

Stefan, if I only knew... I'm just like you - not a specialist, just a person who looks for the information in books, on the web, on this forum. So, tulwar hilt appears occasionally on the Khanda blade - never knew about it

Maybe there were two different styles and schools of Khanda fencing?
The hilt on the Akaal's Khanda (the correct link is http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/.../ewkhandB.html ) is definitely older than our hilts are. I remember reading (in Rawson?) that later hilts and swords are more extensively decorated than older ones, which were simpler. I personally think that both our swords were made in the end of 18th – beginning of the 19th century. But let’s wait what specialists like Jens, Rand or Ward will tell...

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2008, 04:40 PM

Tatyana is right, lets see what the specialists say.

dralin23 · 18th August 2008, 08:19 PM

hi jim and tatjana,
it is intresting to read your opinions, so i can learn more over my swords.
i wrote in my past posts that over these kinds of swords is no one realy good reference book is available ,so is these forum an good platform to discuse my ore yours weapons. so, tajana

you think that these hilt is from the 19.th ct., please look in the book "on damascus steel" from leo figiel page 83. there are an shamshir from the moghul time late 17.th.ct. with also such an hilt like my. the only different is that these hilt is gold damascent. ore look in the page 93 there are also an tulwar with an silver plated hilt with an flower pattern. these sword is also dated to the 17. th. ct.( moghul)
i think my sword is from the moghul time. i never see before an rajasthan khanda with such an tulwar hilt and also the blade is not rajasthan for me.

ward · 18th August 2008, 09:52 PM

I would suggest that you have 18th-early 19th century piece. It is well executed but earlier pieces would be a little better detailed. You have to remember that figel and tirri both wrote vanity books. Figel was known to have bought a lot of married items and was mainly interested in flashy pieces. I like the piece and think it is a nice example would not mind owning it myself.

Atlantia · 18th August 2008, 10:15 PM

Its a beauty. I actually prefer the lines of the Tulwar hilted examples.
Lovely sword. I'd certainly find room for it at my place!

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2008, 11:03 PM

What you have noted is in degree quite true Stefan, the references on Indian weapons are limited mostly to the standard books that have been around for a long time. The only recent reference I recall offhand that has been published is the outstanding work by Elgood, "Hindu Arms and Ritual".

The Rawson book does note that the Rajputs of the northwest indeed fell under the domination of Islamic material culture, and the wootz blades were watered imitating crystalline damask favoring the preferred Mughal damask. In paintings earlier of Rajputs in battles against Mughals, Rawson notes that in one, a Rajput khanda is shown with the Indo Muslim hilt form (pp.27-29).
Apparantly most 18th century khandas have the narrow fretted reinforcements on the blade back and partially on the cutting side. It is interesting , however,that in Egerton (plate 24, 530T) a Rajput khanda with Indo Muslim hilt is shown in line drawing with heavy, fullered blade without reinforcements. Since the Egerton work is considered to be based primarily on extant contemporary examples and was written in 1884, it would seem that by that time the khanda type weapons with Indo Muslim hilt carried heavy, unreinforced and fullered blades.

In "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India" by Dr. Syed Haider (Lahore,1991, p.177), the author notes, "...Muslim khandas were generally equipped with the Indo Muslim hilt. As a weapon, khanda was used by Rajputs, Mughals and Mahrattas".
In the same sense, Rawson notes (p.29) that with the 'sosun pattah', "...this Rajput form is always found mounted in the Hindu basket hilt, whereas the other, Islamic , form has an Indo Muslim hilt".

It is indeed extremely difficult to accurately place time period, or in many cases geographic or cultural identification to the weapons of India, but it seems quite likely that the late 18th-early 19th century period is correct. As we have agreed, accurate reference material on these weapons is in many cases flawed in certain areas, but using them as benchmarks and reinforcing with study of historical material is the best method to follow.

With the information I have found, I think Stefan's inclination toward Mughal is well placed, as the hilt is very close to those of Rajasthan regions in early 19th century, the blade reinforced in traditional style and in the damask as noted.

Just my opinion based on references at hand.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th August 2008, 04:03 PM

Thank you for the confidence Tatyana, but I am no specialist, just a collector like most of the forum members. When we are at it, try to compare the hilt decoration on your tulwar to the one attached. Quite a likeness wouldn’t you say? This could mean that they both come from the same area, but they don’t have to. They could come from areas very far apart, maybe be looted and then copied, as one of many other explanations.

Dralin has a very nice khanda with an unusual hilt. The blade is, to my opinion, older than the hilt, and I think a close examination will show they were brought together at a later stage. Like Jim mentions, these hilts are likely to be end 18th to mid 19th century, but it is hard to tell, as too little is known about them, but personally I would say first half of 19th century. These silver plated and decorated hilts must come from the same area, as the technique is the same, but although you see these hilts now and again, I have not seen anyone mention a place of origin. I feel sure we will, time given, find a ‘label’ for this kind of decorations, but at the moment I would keep the question open.

Dralin, is the blade flexible?

18th August 2008, 11:03 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	What you have noted is in degree quite true Stefan, the references on Indian weapons are limited mostly to the standard books that have been around for a long time. The only recent reference I recall offhand that has been published is the outstanding work by Elgood, "Hindu Arms and Ritual". The Rawson book does note that the Rajputs of the northwest indeed fell under the domination of Islamic material culture, and the wootz blades were watered imitating crystalline damask favoring the preferred Mughal damask. In paintings earlier of Rajputs in battles against Mughals, Rawson notes that in one, a Rajput khanda is shown with the Indo Muslim hilt form (pp.27-29). Apparantly most 18th century khandas have the narrow fretted reinforcements on the blade back and partially on the cutting side. It is interesting , however,that in Egerton (plate 24, 530T) a Rajput khanda with Indo Muslim hilt is shown in line drawing with heavy, fullered blade without reinforcements. Since the Egerton work is considered to be based primarily on extant contemporary examples and was written in 1884, it would seem that by that time the khanda type weapons with Indo Muslim hilt carried heavy, unreinforced and fullered blades. In "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India" by Dr. Syed Haider (Lahore,1991, p.177), the author notes, "...Muslim khandas were generally equipped with the Indo Muslim hilt. As a weapon, khanda was used by Rajputs, Mughals and Mahrattas". In the same sense, Rawson notes (p.29) that with the 'sosun pattah', "...this Rajput form is always found mounted in the Hindu basket hilt, whereas the other, Islamic , form has an Indo Muslim hilt". It is indeed extremely difficult to accurately place time period, or in many cases geographic or cultural identification to the weapons of India, but it seems quite likely that the late 18th-early 19th century period is correct. As we have agreed, accurate reference material on these weapons is in many cases flawed in certain areas, but using them as benchmarks and reinforcing with study of historical material is the best method to follow. With the information I have found, I think Stefan's inclination toward Mughal is well placed, as the hilt is very close to those of Rajasthan regions in early 19th century, the blade reinforced in traditional style and in the damask as noted. Just my opinion based on references at hand. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th August 2008 at 11:27 PM.

19th August 2008, 04:03 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the confidence Tatyana, but I am no specialist, just a collector like most of the forum members. When we are at it, try to compare the hilt decoration on your tulwar to the one attached. Quite a likeness wouldn’t you say? This could mean that they both come from the same area, but they don’t have to. They could come from areas very far apart, maybe be looted and then copied, as one of many other explanations. Dralin has a very nice khanda with an unusual hilt. The blade is, to my opinion, older than the hilt, and I think a close examination will show they were brought together at a later stage. Like Jim mentions, these hilts are likely to be end 18th to mid 19th century, but it is hard to tell, as too little is known about them, but personally I would say first half of 19th century. These silver plated and decorated hilts must come from the same area, as the technique is the same, but although you see these hilts now and again, I have not seen anyone mention a place of origin. I feel sure we will, time given, find a ‘label’ for this kind of decorations, but at the moment I would keep the question open. Dralin, is the blade flexible? Attached Images

18th August 2008, 10:12 AM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 204	thank you jim, tatjana only short first answer. hat the web site from akaal arms you can find also an other khanda sword with an tulwar hilt . here are the link.http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/...khandB.html.in the description he said these sword is from the late 18.ct. the hilt should be older. i don´t know. what is your opinion?? regards, stefan

18th August 2008, 12:36 PM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Stefan, if I only knew... I'm just like you - not a specialist, just a person who looks for the information in books, on the web, on this forum. So, tulwar hilt appears occasionally on the Khanda blade - never knew about it Maybe there were two different styles and schools of Khanda fencing? The hilt on the Akaal's Khanda (the correct link is http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/.../ewkhandB.html ) is definitely older than our hilts are. I remember reading (in Rawson?) that later hilts and swords are more extensively decorated than older ones, which were simpler. I personally think that both our swords were made in the end of 18th – beginning of the 19th century. But let’s wait what specialists like Jens, Rand or Ward will tell...

18th August 2008, 04:40 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Tatyana is right, lets see what the specialists say.

18th August 2008, 08:19 PM	#4
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 204	hi jim and tatjana, it is intresting to read your opinions, so i can learn more over my swords. i wrote in my past posts that over these kinds of swords is no one realy good reference book is available ,so is these forum an good platform to discuse my ore yours weapons. so, tajana you think that these hilt is from the 19.th ct., please look in the book "on damascus steel" from leo figiel page 83. there are an shamshir from the moghul time late 17.th.ct. with also such an hilt like my. the only different is that these hilt is gold damascent. ore look in the page 93 there are also an tulwar with an silver plated hilt with an flower pattern. these sword is also dated to the 17. th. ct.( moghul) i think my sword is from the moghul time. i never see before an rajasthan khanda with such an tulwar hilt and also the blade is not rajasthan for me.

18th August 2008, 09:52 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I would suggest that you have 18th-early 19th century piece. It is well executed but earlier pieces would be a little better detailed. You have to remember that figel and tirri both wrote vanity books. Figel was known to have bought a lot of married items and was mainly interested in flashy pieces. I like the piece and think it is a nice example would not mind owning it myself.

18th August 2008, 10:15 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a beauty. I actually prefer the lines of the Tulwar hilted examples. Lovely sword. I'd certainly find room for it at my place!