Barong Classification

[zelbone]

Spunger, you forgot to mention that these "general guidelines" basically applies to the earlier barungs (pre-1930's) and not to barungs from WWII or later. The more contemporary barongs from WWII and later are almost too similar to distinguish between the different Sulu tribes.

[Spunjer]

...these "general guidelines" basically applies to the earlier barungs (pre-1930's) and not to barungs from WWII or later. The more contemporary barongs from WWII and later are almost too similar to distinguish between the different Sulu tribes.

thanks zel. forgot to add that very important piece of info...

[Ann Feuerbach]

Thanks Spunjer for the additional info. I think the scabbard says the guy was in the 8th Cavalry. Interesting bit of history.

[Federico]

Ok, I hate to be a naysayer here, but particularly the classification between Samal and Tausug barong, just does not hold up when you start to study period pics. Bob Cato lists both styles as variations of barong, but doesnt draw a tribal distinction. Part of the reason for this, is if you do a large survey of period pictures, you will find many period pics in which you will have a group of Tausug wearing both styles of barong, or a group of Samal, etc.... Of note are plates 70 and 71 of D. Encinas book "Moros as seen in Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago", featuring the Sultan of Sulu and his retainers (all Tausug). Also, one will see the "Tausug Crest" (according to this classification scheme) often on barong that have a "Samal" (again according to this scheme) scabbard and vice versa. Now if this was rare occurances, they could be seen as exceptions (possible swaps in scabbards, taste of owner, etc...), but the frequency is quite high. I did not see Banati listed as a pommel material, and at least in my experience this is the most common even amongst Jungayan, and then there generally are no spacers, so that would be in contradiction to the classification of Jungayan as mostly having spacers. I have also seen a high incidence of solid puntos on both middle and fighting barong, so I would be hesitant to say most have interspersed puntos. Finally there are a few of variations left out, such the no metal punto barong with only jute wrap, horn ferrule variations, horse hoof pommels, ball pommels, naga pommels, etc....

[Spunjer]

federico,
glad you could chime in. you forgot to mention the boto shaped pommels so, since you appear to be the primary authority on moro weapons, would it be safe to suggest that we should just forget about the classification? with your vast knowledge on this matter, how do you suggest i approach this? i'm really just trying to create a very elementary, general guideline. ultimately, what i'm trying to do is, i'm just trying to learn more about what measely collection i have, and at the least would like to know where it specifically came from. as i've stated, i've used cato's book and this specific thread as my referrence:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000562.html

please fred, don't leave us hanging like this. whenever you get the time, it would be great if you can add pictures and stuff, maybe elaborate even more, then this thread would definitely be archive material...

ron

[Ian]

Hi Spunjer:

How would you classify this particular shandigan barung according to the scheme you have outlined?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7312694597

Ian.

[themorningstar]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

federico,
glad you could chime in. you forgot to mention the boto shaped pommels so, since you appear to be the primary authority on moro weapons, would it be safe to suggest that we should just forget about the classification? with your vast knowledge on this matter, how do you suggest i approach this? i'm really just trying to create a very elementary, general guideline. ultimately, what i'm trying to do is, i'm just trying to learn more about what measely collection i have, and at the least would like to know where it specifically came from. as i've stated, i've used cato's book and this specific thread as my referrence:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000562.html

please fred, don't leave us hanging like this. whenever you get the time, it would be great if you can add pictures and stuff, maybe elaborate even more, then this thread would definitely be archive material...

ron

primary authority???

[tom hyle]

This is similar to what we're discussing with seme; there appear to be two definably different styles. defining them as different by their feature is like part A, then comes B; defining whether it is age/time, ethnicity, social status, personal taste, preferred fighting style, or what that makes for the difference; a whole 'nother, vaguer, more difficult it seems, and thankfully seperable can of worms.

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

federico,
glad you could chime in. you forgot to mention the boto shaped pommels so, since you appear to be the primary authority on moro weapons, would it be safe to suggest that we should just forget about the classification? with your vast knowledge on this matter, how do you suggest i approach this? i'm really just trying to create a very elementary, general guideline. ultimately, what i'm trying to do is, i'm just trying to learn more about what measely collection i have, and at the least would like to know where it specifically came from. as i've stated, i've used cato's book and this specific thread as my referrence:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000562.html

please fred, don't leave us hanging like this. whenever you get the time, it would be great if you can add pictures and stuff, maybe elaborate even more, then this thread would definitely be archive material...

ron

Ok...I am far from an authority on anything, let alone Moro Swords, just another hobbiest. However, this topic came up way back when before Mabagani joined the forum, and he was the one who pointed out to me that such pictures occur. I cant remember which reference he said to look at, and he would have far better knowledge about more common places to find these pics as he originally pointed it out to me, and has a far greater knowledge of reference material. Unfortunately all my good pics arent scanned, so I dont have a way of posting them online, and can only cite page numbers.

One thing you will note, is modern Tausug barong have many of the "Samal" traits, such as the up-turned scabbard tip, rounded shoulder, etc... My own suspicion, for what its worth as an opinion of a non-expert, has been what if the style denotes age (eg. changing tastes over time) versus tribal distinction given the photographic trends I have encountered in my own journey through the dark. Bob Cato notes the hallmark of a post WWII scabbard is the center ridge on the scabbard. Flat panelled scabbards, by that reasoning (barring of course exceptions), would generally be pre-WWII, but then how pre-WWII would be something to judge on the look of the whole sword/scabbard, and even then its just a guess. Anyways, sometimes I wonder if we are too picky trying to classify things one way or the other.

[Spunjer]

One thing you will note, is modern Tausug barong have many of the "Samal" traits, such as the up-turned scabbard tip, rounded shoulder, etc... My own suspicion, for what its worth as an opinion of a non-expert, has been what if the style denotes age (eg. changing tastes over time) versus tribal distinction...

federico,
as it was noted above, theoretically, post 1930's (why 1930? i don't know...) barongs are so similar that it is hard to distinginguish tribal distinction. are you just talking about the tagub part then? but there has to be a point in time where each of the tribes has their own distict style in both the blade and the tagub.

Anyways, sometimes I wonder if we are too picky trying to classify things one way or the other.

well, i guess that's part of being a collector in my case anyway. it's the curiosity in most of us to know every single detail and history of what we have on hand. in my case, if at all possible, i'd like to know the panday's name that made the barong i have. then it goes on and on... yeah, it would've been fine to know what a barong is, or what country it came from, but when someone mentioned that there are certain identifying traits as to the actual origin of this certain sword, it peaks our interests. also, i think it would be a disservice to the actual tribe that purposely left their distinct signature on something they revered so much and later on to be referred to as the other tribes' esp. in the philippines...