Origins please

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2008, 04:08 AM

These are Syrian shamshirs Gav, and these look like late 19th century, possibly into early 20th. I really like these (see my avatar

and they were typically acquired by Bedouins in Arabia. It would be interesting to get a look at the blades.
Intertribal warfare and raiding prevailed well into 1930's and 40's in Arabia, probably much longer, in fact I'm sure well into the Nejd it still goes on, but more on that from our guys in Arabia.
These are handsome sabres and good examples of 20th century swords where these weapons were still used.

Best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 3rd August 2008, 04:26 AM

Thanks Jim, Any ideas on the bottom sword as to why it differs somewhat in dimensions so far as the blade is much broader than the usual Shamishirs I have seen and the hilt tapers more than I have seen on most too? I am guessing it is just a varient of styles prefered by owners???

Thanks for coming in.

Gav

Yannis · 3rd August 2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

I am guessing it is just a varient of styles prefered by owners???
Gav

The makers had certain styles and the owners had to choose among them. I suppose that some of them wanted heavy blades.

I suggest to clean them and etch them. It could be damascus blade there

RSWORD · 3rd August 2008, 02:29 PM

Blades often saw long service lifes, were family heirlooms, were extensively traded, etc so it is not uncommon to see older blades mounted up in late 19th or early 20th century mounts. While it is not an exact measuring tool, a wider, heavier blade with less curvature can be a fairly old blade especially if it is damascus. Anthony North in his book "Islamic Arms in the V&A" mentions that while it is difficult to date unprovenanced or undated swords the earlier ones tend to be wider and heavier and this was due to usage. It would have been used against armour. In the later times, 18th and 19th century, heavy armour slowly went away and the shamshir design slimmed down, took more curvature, etc.

Lovely swords!

Gavin Nugent · 4th August 2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Blades often saw long service lifes, were family heirlooms, were extensively traded, etc so it is not uncommon to see older blades mounted up in late 19th or early 20th century mounts. While it is not an exact measuring tool, a wider, heavier blade with less curvature can be a fairly old blade especially if it is damascus. Anthony North in his book "Islamic Arms in the V&A" mentions that while it is difficult to date unprovenanced or undated swords the earlier ones tend to be wider and heavier and this was due to usage. It would have been used against armour. In the later times, 18th and 19th century, heavy armour slowly went away and the shamshir design slimmed down, took more curvature, etc.

Lovely swords!

Thanks Rick, your expression of knowledge is always appreciated. I do look forward to feeling them first hand and I will note differences in my postings when they arrive, incidentally I acquired a not uncommon double jian with these as well, late Ching dynasty in pristine condition, when it too arrives I will post these as there is a difference of blade styles I would like to note and hear feedback on.

All the best

Gav

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2008, 04:49 PM

Hi Gavin,
Rick is quite correct in noting that the heavier blades on these swords tends to reflect earlier date. I recall a sabre mounted with what I later discovered was a mid 17th century tulwar blade, and was indeed distinctly wide and very heavy.

As I was looking again at these Syrian sabres, I got out my trusty "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994) and began reading in the first chapter. It was fascinating as the descriptions of Arabia through the 19th century and into the 20th spoke of the trade, warfare and supply of weapons of the Bedouin tribes. The caravans from Damascus through the Hijaz to Mecca it was noted, took 40 days before the completion of the Hijaz railway in 1908. Pilgrims would often bring trade items, including swords, to trade or sell to subsidize their journey.
In the Badiet esh Sham (Syrian desert), many of the northern confederation of Bedouin, collectively called Aniza, and of them the Rwala, prevailed in NW Saudi Arabia. While many Bedouin were of course nomadic, many also settled in towns which became trade centers in that region, especially Jauf, which it is noted was considered a Syrian town, with its diverse cultures.

The reason I am sharing this is to illustrate something very important in weapons collecting. I discovered many years ago that the true adventure is not only holding a piece of history in your hands, but to learn the stories the weapon has to tell. Though I do not have a Syrian sabre in my hands, through the pictures of the two you have acquired, I have gone on a terrific adventure just reading briefly on Arabia, its history and about the Bedouin tribes. Complete excitement!!!

Elgood's wonderful writing speaks of the Bedouin tribes, their warfare going into the 30's and for that matter into the 50's, not only still using swords, but even old matchlocks. This goes not at all make these tribal warriors seem backward, but incredibly magnificent and colorful! I could almost see these sabres being packed along in a desert caravan, traded to Bedouin warriors and carried proudly by them into battle.

It is by no means the number of weapons one has in a collection, it is entirely about the relationship between you and the ones you have. These sabres who were quite possibly once the pride of a Bedouin warrior, have found thier way to you, and it is up to you to safely preserve them and thier history.
As I learned very young, it becomes more about the books and the knowledge much, much more than the volume of weapons, or clearly even the weapons themselves.

I think this is best illustrated in the recent post of Gene Beall (Mare Rosu)'s collection, which consists of only seven weapons, but whose magnitude by the beautiful research and cataloguing has made the collection monumental. As he describes, the weapons have become his dear friends, and the rest is.....history.

Happy collecting!! and congratulations on the new little warrior on the way

!

Jim

Norman McCormick · 4th August 2008, 09:27 PM

Hi Gavin,
Nice swords, am looking forward to seeing them cleaned up a little. Really curious as to the 'few other swords'. BTW the forthcoming addition will probably cost you a lot more than your collection ever will, believe me I know.

My Regards,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 4th August 2008, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

I suggest to clean them and etch them. It could be damascus blade there

I certainly hope so...What are the chances??? I look forward to posting a few happy snaps when they arrive. Sadly though, it appears I might have to let a couple of other pieces go from the collection to actually keep these as there will be a new member in the family in about 6 weeks, hopefully when he is old enough he mght just take an interest in my collections...

Gav

3rd August 2008, 04:26 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Jim Thanks Jim, Any ideas on the bottom sword as to why it differs somewhat in dimensions so far as the blade is much broader than the usual Shamishirs I have seen and the hilt tapers more than I have seen on most too? I am guessing it is just a varient of styles prefered by owners??? Thanks for coming in. Gav

4th August 2008, 04:49 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Gavin, Rick is quite correct in noting that the heavier blades on these swords tends to reflect earlier date. I recall a sabre mounted with what I later discovered was a mid 17th century tulwar blade, and was indeed distinctly wide and very heavy. As I was looking again at these Syrian sabres, I got out my trusty "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994) and began reading in the first chapter. It was fascinating as the descriptions of Arabia through the 19th century and into the 20th spoke of the trade, warfare and supply of weapons of the Bedouin tribes. The caravans from Damascus through the Hijaz to Mecca it was noted, took 40 days before the completion of the Hijaz railway in 1908. Pilgrims would often bring trade items, including swords, to trade or sell to subsidize their journey. In the Badiet esh Sham (Syrian desert), many of the northern confederation of Bedouin, collectively called Aniza, and of them the Rwala, prevailed in NW Saudi Arabia. While many Bedouin were of course nomadic, many also settled in towns which became trade centers in that region, especially Jauf, which it is noted was considered a Syrian town, with its diverse cultures. The reason I am sharing this is to illustrate something very important in weapons collecting. I discovered many years ago that the true adventure is not only holding a piece of history in your hands, but to learn the stories the weapon has to tell. Though I do not have a Syrian sabre in my hands, through the pictures of the two you have acquired, I have gone on a terrific adventure just reading briefly on Arabia, its history and about the Bedouin tribes. Complete excitement!!! Elgood's wonderful writing speaks of the Bedouin tribes, their warfare going into the 30's and for that matter into the 50's, not only still using swords, but even old matchlocks. This goes not at all make these tribal warriors seem backward, but incredibly magnificent and colorful! I could almost see these sabres being packed along in a desert caravan, traded to Bedouin warriors and carried proudly by them into battle. It is by no means the number of weapons one has in a collection, it is entirely about the relationship between you and the ones you have. These sabres who were quite possibly once the pride of a Bedouin warrior, have found thier way to you, and it is up to you to safely preserve them and thier history. As I learned very young, it becomes more about the books and the knowledge much, much more than the volume of weapons, or clearly even the weapons themselves. I think this is best illustrated in the recent post of Gene Beall (Mare Rosu)'s collection, which consists of only seven weapons, but whose magnitude by the beautiful research and cataloguing has made the collection monumental. As he describes, the weapons have become his dear friends, and the rest is.....history. Happy collecting!! and congratulations on the new little warrior on the way! Jim

3rd August 2008, 04:08 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	These are Syrian shamshirs Gav, and these look like late 19th century, possibly into early 20th. I really like these (see my avatar and they were typically acquired by Bedouins in Arabia. It would be interesting to get a look at the blades. Intertribal warfare and raiding prevailed well into 1930's and 40's in Arabia, probably much longer, in fact I'm sure well into the Nejd it still goes on, but more on that from our guys in Arabia. These are handsome sabres and good examples of 20th century swords where these weapons were still used. Best regards, Jim

3rd August 2008, 02:29 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Blades often saw long service lifes, were family heirlooms, were extensively traded, etc so it is not uncommon to see older blades mounted up in late 19th or early 20th century mounts. While it is not an exact measuring tool, a wider, heavier blade with less curvature can be a fairly old blade especially if it is damascus. Anthony North in his book "Islamic Arms in the V&A" mentions that while it is difficult to date unprovenanced or undated swords the earlier ones tend to be wider and heavier and this was due to usage. It would have been used against armour. In the later times, 18th and 19th century, heavy armour slowly went away and the shamshir design slimmed down, took more curvature, etc. Lovely swords!

4th August 2008, 09:27 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Gavin, Nice swords, am looking forward to seeing them cleaned up a little. Really curious as to the 'few other swords'. BTW the forthcoming addition will probably cost you a lot more than your collection ever will, believe me I know. My Regards, Norman.