Barbary corsairs/swords

chevalier · 22nd July 2008, 05:39 AM

i think the mooroccan daggers are called "koumiya"

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2008, 08:35 AM

Hi Mark,
I'm right with ya! Definitely an interesting faction of piracy, and the thought of what weapons might have been used brings lots of ideas. It seems like this was big business based in ports of the Maghreb (known as the Barbary Coast for the prevalent Berber inhabitants )from medieval times through the 19th century.
Since these scalawags were primarily procuring slaves for this industry in Ottoman controlled regions, it would seem that the weapons of that Empire were likely most common. While combat at sea was surely not unusual, much of thier action consisted of raids on land, so swords of regular size, especially like the Moroccan 'nimcha' or sa'if probably became regularly seen. Since these type hilts were known in the familiar form by the 17th century (as seen in English paintings being worn by two English nobles in the instances I've seen) it would seem these were certainly one form used. The appearance in English paintings may be from either British interaction with these pirates, or from diplomatic-trade interaction.

I have seen some references on the Barbary Pirates which had line illustrations using the Ottoman kilij with the pistol grip hilt, and it does not seem far fetched to consider yataghans in thier sashes.

While these thoughts reflect logical candidates for the weapons most likely used, it would be great to see some of the paintings etc illustrating the perspective and possibly license of the artists posted here.

I really doubt the flyssa ever got to sea, unless one of the short dagger type. The full size ones remain a mystery as to how they were actually used, and they were only around for a short time in the 19th century.

Another mystery, those 'Berber' sabres with profiled points, they too seem a 19th century phenomenon said to be from Morocco, yet they have eluded any contemporary notice from any study or review of arms from there. They do seem like a great weapon for pirate use though, even if from a simply aesthetic view.

I really look forward to seeing Barbary Pirates illustrations, and lets see some nimchas!!!

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 22nd July 2008, 10:09 AM

Amen,Jim, and thanks for responding. Yes, I do hope someone can produce some illustrations from the era to enlighten us. I had forgotten about the slavery angle (other than the Midaeval slavery of the Corsairs taking Christians as slaves and the Maltese corsairs taking the Muslim pilgrims in kind). Land raids would have likely shown regular-sized swords as you stated. Ottoman swords make sense, and I see your point about the flyssa and Berber sabers. What would an Algerian pirate of the day carry, I wonder?

Rick · 22nd July 2008, 04:12 PM

A place to start .

http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2008, 04:54 PM

Hi Mark,
I enjoyed revisiting the pirate topic too! Its funny, I've of course been familiar with the term Barbary Pirates for as long as I can remember, but never really thought about them specifically in terms of who they really were or what thier weapons might have been. I really had no idea these pirates had such a vast range of operation, thinking they simply stayed close to the coast of North Africa. It appears they 'went shopping' for slaves not only in the Meditteranean but to England and further north, even to Iceland!

In looking at the term Barbary Pirates, as noted this derives from the Berbers and that association is well known, but became very curious about the term 'corsair'. In considering the pirates from the Golden Age, we have learned of the term Buccaneers as well as Privateers, and know that the Privateers were essentially 'licensed' to prey on shipping with royally issued 'letters of marque'. These often dubious documents would allow the bearer to officially plunder the ships of any 'enemy' power.

The term 'corsair' apparantly derives from this concept, and in French parlance refers to the commissioning document from the French king. The letter of marque in this case was termed 'lettre de course', which means literally 'racing letter' (race= la course). In French euphemism, the 'race' was the chasing down of enemy ships as prey in this sense. With the well established French presence in the Maghreb, it appears the term became associated colloquially to these Barbary pirates, with reference to Ottoman 'corsairs'.

Sometimes it seems like we get sidetracked by terminology, but in many cases when utilizing resources such as contemporary narratives it helps to better understand the variations of terms referring to a particular subject.
With that, returning to our Moroccan nimcha/sa'if , these were used along the entire littoral of the Maghreb, although commonly thought of as Moroccan. I would think that these would have been in use parallel to the variety of familiar Ottoman weapons.

On other discussions on these Moroccan nimchas, it has long been generally held that these hilts were likely influenced by Italian swords with similar quillon development ("A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", Anthony North, Connoisseur magazine, Dec.1975, p.238-241). I had always presumed that this influence was probably through trade contact, but wonder if the influence might have arisen via incursions into Italy of these raiders as well.

Great topic, its great learning more on these guys!!

fernando · 23rd July 2008, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... What would an Algerian pirate of the day carry, I wonder?

Apparently (also) the crossbow was part of their gear; not only used by Algerians but also by other Mahgreb corsairs, like from Larache and Tetuan.

RhysMichael · 23rd July 2008, 12:16 AM

I don't have an answer but I may be able to point you towards somewhere that does. The National Maritime Museum in London has a huge collection of documents on pirates and did a 3 year exhibition on it called "Pirates Fact and Fiction" from 1993 to I think 1995
here is thier pirate research page
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.632

and for africa this may help from the same place

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/pri...y=&startrow=85

The Story of the Barbary Corsairs Author: Stanley Lane-Poole Lieut. J. D. Jerrold Kelley 1890 is here
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22169...-h/22169-h.htm

and more on pirates from Project Gutenberg

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Pirate...c._(Bookshelf)

RhysMichael · 23rd July 2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I really look forward to seeing Barbary Pirates illustrations, and lets see some nimchas!!!

All best regards,
Jim

From the collection at the Maritime Museum in London

Quote:

Maghreb nimcha, which belonged to Vice-Admiral Sir Thomas Hopsonn (1642-1717). The hilt of the nimcha consists of a brass knuckle-guard, which is formed by a long, curved, down turned quillon. The opposite quillon ends short and is turned up. The nimcha has a brass langet and an embryo pas d'ane ring. The grip consists of a fluted dark brown material, which is covered with chased silver-plating originally having two rubies or other jewels mounted near the pommel. The flat-backed steel blade is slightly curved with a hatchet point, and two deep grooves. Family tradition has it that Vice-Admiral Sir Thomas Hopsonn 'when Lieutenant about 1670, boarded a Turkish ship and, being the first on board, the Captain of that vessel was in the act of cutting him down when he arrested the stroke, wrenched the sabre from his opponent's hand and slew him with his own weapon'. It is probable that the enemy ship was an Algerian corsair and the action took place about 1676 when Hopsonn was a First Lieutenant on the 'Dragon' in the Mediterranean. Vice-Admiral Sir Thomas Hopsonn (1642-1717) was born on the Isle of Wight in 1642 and entered the Royal Navy in about 1662. He became Vice-Admiral of the White in 1701-1702. He distinguished himself at the attack on the French-Spanish fleet at Vigo on the 12th October 1702 and was knighted by the Queen in the same year. He later became MP for Newton, Isle of Wight and died in 1717 aged 75.

Atlantia · 23rd July 2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

From the collection at the Maritime Museum in London

E1270, Nimcha (sword)
© National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London

And is there any of us that don't dream of having a weapon with a story like that behind it?

What a cracker that one is!

22nd July 2008, 04:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Google Image Search A place to start . http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2

23rd July 2008, 12:16 AM	#7
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I don't have an answer but I may be able to point you towards somewhere that does. The National Maritime Museum in London has a huge collection of documents on pirates and did a 3 year exhibition on it called "Pirates Fact and Fiction" from 1993 to I think 1995 here is thier pirate research page http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.632 and for africa this may help from the same place http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/pri...y=&startrow=85 The Story of the Barbary Corsairs Author: Stanley Lane-Poole Lieut. J. D. Jerrold Kelley 1890 is here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22169...-h/22169-h.htm and more on pirates from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Pirate...c._(Bookshelf) Last edited by RhysMichael; 23rd July 2008 at 01:37 AM.

22nd July 2008, 05:39 AM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i think the mooroccan daggers are called "koumiya"

22nd July 2008, 08:35 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Hi Mark, I'm right with ya! Definitely an interesting faction of piracy, and the thought of what weapons might have been used brings lots of ideas. It seems like this was big business based in ports of the Maghreb (known as the Barbary Coast for the prevalent Berber inhabitants )from medieval times through the 19th century. Since these scalawags were primarily procuring slaves for this industry in Ottoman controlled regions, it would seem that the weapons of that Empire were likely most common. While combat at sea was surely not unusual, much of thier action consisted of raids on land, so swords of regular size, especially like the Moroccan 'nimcha' or sa'if probably became regularly seen. Since these type hilts were known in the familiar form by the 17th century (as seen in English paintings being worn by two English nobles in the instances I've seen) it would seem these were certainly one form used. The appearance in English paintings may be from either British interaction with these pirates, or from diplomatic-trade interaction. I have seen some references on the Barbary Pirates which had line illustrations using the Ottoman kilij with the pistol grip hilt, and it does not seem far fetched to consider yataghans in thier sashes. While these thoughts reflect logical candidates for the weapons most likely used, it would be great to see some of the paintings etc illustrating the perspective and possibly license of the artists posted here. I really doubt the flyssa ever got to sea, unless one of the short dagger type. The full size ones remain a mystery as to how they were actually used, and they were only around for a short time in the 19th century. Another mystery, those 'Berber' sabres with profiled points, they too seem a 19th century phenomenon said to be from Morocco, yet they have eluded any contemporary notice from any study or review of arms from there. They do seem like a great weapon for pirate use though, even if from a simply aesthetic view. I really look forward to seeing Barbary Pirates illustrations, and lets see some nimchas!!! All best regards, Jim

22nd July 2008, 10:09 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,210	Amen,Jim, and thanks for responding. Yes, I do hope someone can produce some illustrations from the era to enlighten us. I had forgotten about the slavery angle (other than the Midaeval slavery of the Corsairs taking Christians as slaves and the Maltese corsairs taking the Muslim pilgrims in kind). Land raids would have likely shown regular-sized swords as you stated. Ottoman swords make sense, and I see your point about the flyssa and Berber sabers. What would an Algerian pirate of the day carry, I wonder?

22nd July 2008, 04:54 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Hi Mark, I enjoyed revisiting the pirate topic too! Its funny, I've of course been familiar with the term Barbary Pirates for as long as I can remember, but never really thought about them specifically in terms of who they really were or what thier weapons might have been. I really had no idea these pirates had such a vast range of operation, thinking they simply stayed close to the coast of North Africa. It appears they 'went shopping' for slaves not only in the Meditteranean but to England and further north, even to Iceland! In looking at the term Barbary Pirates, as noted this derives from the Berbers and that association is well known, but became very curious about the term 'corsair'. In considering the pirates from the Golden Age, we have learned of the term Buccaneers as well as Privateers, and know that the Privateers were essentially 'licensed' to prey on shipping with royally issued 'letters of marque'. These often dubious documents would allow the bearer to officially plunder the ships of any 'enemy' power. The term 'corsair' apparantly derives from this concept, and in French parlance refers to the commissioning document from the French king. The letter of marque in this case was termed 'lettre de course', which means literally 'racing letter' (race= la course). In French euphemism, the 'race' was the chasing down of enemy ships as prey in this sense. With the well established French presence in the Maghreb, it appears the term became associated colloquially to these Barbary pirates, with reference to Ottoman 'corsairs'. Sometimes it seems like we get sidetracked by terminology, but in many cases when utilizing resources such as contemporary narratives it helps to better understand the variations of terms referring to a particular subject. With that, returning to our Moroccan nimcha/sa'if , these were used along the entire littoral of the Maghreb, although commonly thought of as Moroccan. I would think that these would have been in use parallel to the variety of familiar Ottoman weapons. On other discussions on these Moroccan nimchas, it has long been generally held that these hilts were likely influenced by Italian swords with similar quillon development ("A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", Anthony North, Connoisseur magazine, Dec.1975, p.238-241). I had always presumed that this influence was probably through trade contact, but wonder if the influence might have arisen via incursions into Italy of these raiders as well. Great topic, its great learning more on these guys!!