Maranao Sundang

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering.

In Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil's video they show the pattern being brought out in a Barong with lime juice after forging .

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

In Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil's video they show the pattern being brought out in a Barong with lime juice after forging .

Yes. i remember that, but what year was that film made. I am wondering more about 19th century kris and before.
To make an Indo keris comparison, it would appear that from examining Javanese keris that were collected in the first encounters with the Dutch that these keris were polished in a similar way to what we might know as a Balinese style. At some point this tradition changed in Jawa and the deeper etched look came into style. So, does this segment in Sulu Seas really give us any solid evidence that earlier Moros also darkened their blades?

[Rick]

Here's a pic of a Kampilan blade with a stable untouched patina .

As an observation; I would think that mirror bright blades would be a detriment in ambush and stealth type combat .

[Spunjer]

interesting point, david.
in that collection i saw, not one showed any type of pattern. matter of fact, the collection was kept "western style", in that it was left untouched.
perhaps not mirrored finish but rather just as is...

rick,

dam, would love to hit some real surf right about now, lol.
as far as the pointy luks, that was my impression when i saw this kris.
here are some close ups:

[Rick]

Oh my !
That is really nice work Ron .

[David]

Thanks for your example Rick as well as your close-ups Ron.
I'm not sure that the Kampilan pic isn't just darkened from age rather than intentionally. That's what i'd like to know for sure.
Nice kris Ron.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

interesting point, david.
in that collection i saw, not one showed any type of pattern. matter of fact, the collection was kept "western style", in that it was left untouched.
perhaps not mirrored finish but rather just as is...

rick,

dam, would love to hit some real surf right about now, lol.
as far as the pointy luks, that was my impression when i saw this kris.
here are some close ups:

Very nice, Ron!

Magellan didn't fare to well in the surf.......

[Rick]

No, he definitely kooked out Bill .
Rule number one :
Don't tick off the locals .

[kai]

Hello David,

Thanks for bringing this up.

I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this.

Yes, I also would like to see some photographic evidence from the late 19th or early 20th century. I'm not keeping my breath though since (light) staining of blades is hard enough to photograph nowadays and obviously much less likely to get picked up accidentally with antique photography equipment.

Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny.

I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party...

Your best bet would be to locate ethnographic collections which were acquired while the old kris tradition was still alive and where the collecting of weapons as well as other artifacts was done by scientists rather than by military officers. I doubt wether the early (pre-Span.-Am. war) US expeditions to the Philippines would qualify - maybe someone can elucidate how they were organized and carried out?

To make an Indo keris comparison, it would appear that from examining Javanese keris that were collected in the first encounters with the Dutch that these keris were polished in a similar way to what we might know as a Balinese style. At some point this tradition changed in Jawa and the deeper etched look came into style.

The northern keris are often only etched rather than stained with warangan. Thus, all keris were routinely etched (and often stained). IMHO this makes it pretty likely that kris (keris sundang) were traditionally etched, too.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, I also would like to see some photographic evidence from the late 19th or early 20th century. I'm not keeping my breath though since (light) staining of blades is hard enough to photograph nowadays and obviously much less likely to get picked up accidentally with antique photography equipment.

I wouldn't expect to be able to clearly see a pattern, but photo equiptment from the turn of the century was certainly advanced enough to be able to see if the blade was shiny or darkened. It would all depend on if the photograph was a reasonable distance from a drawn blade

Originally Posted by kai

The northern keris are often only etched rather than stained with warangan. Thus, all keris were routinely etched (and often stained). IMHO this makes it pretty likely that kris (keris sundang) were traditionally etched, too.

I not only follow your logic, but tend to agree with it. I am not necessarily presenting the argument that blades weren't etched, just looking for evidence of it.
My point about Javanese keris once receiving a Balinese style polish with it's etching was only to show that traditions can change over the years. It would be nice if we could determine with some certainty if etching blades dark was indeed always the tradition.

[Battara]

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by Battara

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

Just to get my 2 cents in, I would assume that since the moro aesthetic included choosing well grained woods for the beautiful figure of the grain as well as taking pains to polish horn and ivory for thier luster, thier aesthetic may very well have included etching treatments to reveal and enhance the grain and complex blade structures of thier swords.

But just to balance that out, stories are told of the practice of polishing and whitening blades before going juramentado as well.

These are just old stories but may well have some basis like the term "pinuti" in visayan swords meaning to whiten.

Just throwing some ideas around

[David]

Well, this is just Wiki info and the actual statement is not credited, but this article also mentions polishing the weapon before juramentado.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BusterD/sandbox

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello David,







I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party...






Regards,
Kai

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."

Actually I think the picture was over exposed, so I lowered the exposure and below is the result. Notice that the baka baka are shiny and lighter in color than the blade....

[ThePepperSkull]

Apologies in advance if it's bad form to resurrect an old thread on these forums, but I remember seeing a picture not too long ago of a Datu (from Sulu, I believe) holding his Kris in the air with the sun shining in his face.

The whole blade did not glint in the sun, in fact it looked quite grey/black in the picture. The two baca-baca at the base of the blade, however, were quite reflective.

I can't for the life of me find that picture now, but when I do, I'll be sure to edit this post with it.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Apologies in advance if it's bad form to resurrect an old thread on these forums, but I remember seeing a picture not too long ago of a Datu (from Sulu, I believe) holding his Kris in the air with the sun shining in his face.

The whole blade did not glint in the sun, in fact it looked quite grey/black in the picture. The two baca-baca at the base of the blade, however, were quite reflective.

I can't for the life of me find that picture now, but when I do, I'll be sure to edit this post with it.

must be this one!

[Aleksey G.]

same pic with with a touch of some photo magic