Strange piece back, for coments

fernando · 12th July 2008, 06:10 PM

Thank you Lew. That's the sort of reasoning i have been inclined to subscribe, untill reasonable evidence shows otherwise.

Thank you Fearn. I see your point/s.
But let me divagate a little.
We know that the sickle (BTW in portuguese "foice" from latin falx), although primarily an agricultural implement, has allways been associated to weaponry. During middle ages it was one of the main resources of the infantry "pawns" that were gathered among agricultural people, who used to adapt long hafts to these implements, to achieve an economic weapon. I can realize that evolution of such situation took people to strenghten the sickles that were meant for combat, making them become exclusive weapons, instead of dual use devices.
... lately i read somewhere that arits also suffered such modifications.
At same time it appears that sickles were in the origin of European halberds.
I find that, at least in the Portuguese universe, hooks and billhooks belong to the sickle family, with variations more dedicated to tough cutting and pruning ( podão and podoa, from podar=to prune).
What stops me to conclude that my specimen is simply an agricultural tool, is that i didn't yet find another example to prove (me) so, with the agravation that i don't have enough "luggage" to associate all that i have seen (or been shown) so far, with my piece.
The blades i see out there, all have a different blade aproach, often with a more acute (closed) angle, together with other details ... socketing system, etc.
I see it that, being this an agricultural tool, or whatever, must be very specific of a determined region, as it doesn't fit into any generical situation ... at least to my unexperienced eyes.
I hope some of what i just said makes any sense.
Fernando

Rick · 12th July 2008, 06:34 PM

Fernando, is the back edge of this article partially sharpened ?
Does a sickle need a back edge ?

Can it cut both ways ?
If it can; my money's on it being a weapon in the arit clurit class ..

fernando · 12th July 2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Fernando, is the back edge of this article partially sharpened ?
Does a sickle need a back edge ?

Can it cut both ways ?
If it can; my money's on it being a weapon in the arit clurit class ..

Thank you for coming in, Rick

1 - No, on the contrary, its back is rather thick and squary all the way to its tip ... with the due tapering.
2 - I think i see what you mean

.
3 - You mean back and forth, with the same edge ? i don't see why not ... actually i think it could even do some thrust, BTW; its angle is rather slight.
4 - That being your bet, I will add some of my money to it. Wish us luck

Fernando

kronckew · 7th September 2010, 07:46 AM

just saw this in a friend's collection: (2nd one down)

i immediately thought of fernando's piece.

owner refers to it as an arit...

fernando · 7th September 2010, 04:55 PM

Outstanding Wayne!
... after over two years !
How could you remember this ?
An arit, no doubt; this time also the socket speaks for itself.
Thank you very much indeed

fearn · 7th September 2010, 05:36 PM

Neat blades!

Best,

F

(edited to remove duplicate comment)

kronckew · 7th September 2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Outstanding Wayne!
... after over two years !
How could you remember this ?
An arit, no doubt; this time also the socket speaks for itself.
Thank you very much indeed

serendipity

i just recently noticed your post in the trading post, which reminded me, and the owner of the one i posted today, posted the photo in another forum's 'show us your swords' thread this morning, so it was still fairly fresh in my mind

like most people , it's easier for me to remember the unusual items with unanswered questions...

Billman · 6th November 2010, 02:20 PM

There is much overlap between sickles (grass cutting) and billhooks (wood cutting) - in between there us a wide range of sickle shapes billhooks, e.g. the French faucillon or faucille à bois. The use of the same names for both weapons and tools further confuses the issue, e.g, bill or fauchard, as does the fact that weapons tend to have greater market value than tools.

In many societies the same blade probably served as tool and weapon, as in recent times in Rwanda, where the machete was the weapon of choice (used for genocide...).

Cutting tools may have long or short handles, fitted by a tang, a socket or rivetted scales - the blade may be convex, straight or concave - it may also be decorated, c.f. many tools from Austria, Hungary and the Alpine regions of German, France and Italy.... Handles may be made from wood, bone, leather, horn, antler or even exotic materials such as ivory, rhino horn or walrus tusk.

Even the presence of a hand guard does not indicate a weapon - they are found on Polish and Swiss billhooks, the American Woodsman's Pal (designed by a Swiss emigré) and sometimes the even as the extended guard of an Italian billhook.

A long handle and a hook on the back of the blade does not mean it is a weapon - hedging slashers from many countries have this feature, e.g. the French croissant and the Portugese foice...

Taking any tool/weapon away from its context make it difficult to be sure what its intended use was. Mis-use of a tool make it difficult for collectors of ethnograhic items... many of the tools in the Dutch Rijksmuseuem at Leiden are mis-named, presumably beacuse at the time of collection they were being used for an different purpose than they were made for, or maybe just ignorance or lack of local knowledge on the part of the collector....

If a tool is used as a weapon does that make it into a weapon, or does it remain a tool and vice versa??? (Somewhere I have an image of a German WWll bayonet turned into a sickle by an Italian blacksmith - a real case of turning spears into sickles (pruning hooks) ref Isaiah 2:4)

Billman · 7th November 2010, 10:59 AM

Sorry, wrong museum, should be the Volkenkunde at Leiden, not the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam - correct link is:

http://www.rmv.nl/collections/home.aspx

12th July 2008, 06:10 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Lew. That's the sort of reasoning i have been inclined to subscribe, untill reasonable evidence shows otherwise. Thank you Fearn. I see your point/s. But let me divagate a little. We know that the sickle (BTW in portuguese "foice" from latin falx), although primarily an agricultural implement, has allways been associated to weaponry. During middle ages it was one of the main resources of the infantry "pawns" that were gathered among agricultural people, who used to adapt long hafts to these implements, to achieve an economic weapon. I can realize that evolution of such situation took people to strenghten the sickles that were meant for combat, making them become exclusive weapons, instead of dual use devices. ... lately i read somewhere that arits also suffered such modifications. At same time it appears that sickles were in the origin of European halberds. I find that, at least in the Portuguese universe, hooks and billhooks belong to the sickle family, with variations more dedicated to tough cutting and pruning ( podão and podoa, from podar=to prune). What stops me to conclude that my specimen is simply an agricultural tool, is that i didn't yet find another example to prove (me) so, with the agravation that i don't have enough "luggage" to associate all that i have seen (or been shown) so far, with my piece. The blades i see out there, all have a different blade aproach, often with a more acute (closed) angle, together with other details ... socketing system, etc. I see it that, being this an agricultural tool, or whatever, must be very specific of a determined region, as it doesn't fit into any generical situation ... at least to my unexperienced eyes. I hope some of what i just said makes any sense. Fernando Attached Images

7th September 2010, 05:36 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Neat blades! Best, F (edited to remove duplicate comment) Last edited by fearn; 7th September 2010 at 08:50 PM.

6th November 2010, 02:20 PM	#8
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	sickle, billhook or other There is much overlap between sickles (grass cutting) and billhooks (wood cutting) - in between there us a wide range of sickle shapes billhooks, e.g. the French faucillon or faucille à bois. The use of the same names for both weapons and tools further confuses the issue, e.g, bill or fauchard, as does the fact that weapons tend to have greater market value than tools. In many societies the same blade probably served as tool and weapon, as in recent times in Rwanda, where the machete was the weapon of choice (used for genocide...). Cutting tools may have long or short handles, fitted by a tang, a socket or rivetted scales - the blade may be convex, straight or concave - it may also be decorated, c.f. many tools from Austria, Hungary and the Alpine regions of German, France and Italy.... Handles may be made from wood, bone, leather, horn, antler or even exotic materials such as ivory, rhino horn or walrus tusk. Even the presence of a hand guard does not indicate a weapon - they are found on Polish and Swiss billhooks, the American Woodsman's Pal (designed by a Swiss emigré) and sometimes the even as the extended guard of an Italian billhook. A long handle and a hook on the back of the blade does not mean it is a weapon - hedging slashers from many countries have this feature, e.g. the French croissant and the Portugese foice... Taking any tool/weapon away from its context make it difficult to be sure what its intended use was. Mis-use of a tool make it difficult for collectors of ethnograhic items... many of the tools in the Dutch Rijksmuseuem at Leiden are mis-named, presumably beacuse at the time of collection they were being used for an different purpose than they were made for, or maybe just ignorance or lack of local knowledge on the part of the collector.... If a tool is used as a weapon does that make it into a weapon, or does it remain a tool and vice versa??? (Somewhere I have an image of a German WWll bayonet turned into a sickle by an Italian blacksmith - a real case of turning spears into sickles (pruning hooks) ref Isaiah 2:4)

12th July 2008, 06:34 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Fernando, is the back edge of this article partially sharpened ? Does a sickle need a back edge ? Can it cut both ways ? If it can; my money's on it being a weapon in the arit clurit class ..

7th September 2010, 07:46 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	just saw this in a friend's collection: (2nd one down) i immediately thought of fernando's piece. owner refers to it as an arit...

7th September 2010, 04:55 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Outstanding Wayne! ... after over two years ! How could you remember this ? An arit, no doubt; this time also the socket speaks for itself. Thank you very much indeed

7th November 2010, 10:59 AM	#9
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Sorry, wrong museum, should be the Volkenkunde at Leiden, not the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam - correct link is: http://www.rmv.nl/collections/home.aspx