Older Ivory Junggayan Kalis

Battara · 10th July 2008, 12:39 AM

I do think it is an old scabbard if it is not original - look at the place where a metal band was near the top.....Also the patina on the wood looks old as well as the style of carving is right.....

Dajak · 13th July 2008, 04:07 PM

I see more use on the kris than on the scabbard that is why I ask .

And the rattan on the scabbard defnetily don't look 100 years old .

Bill can you make an pic off the kris in the scabbard from above.

Thanks Ben

David · 13th July 2008, 04:41 PM

I don't know if this sheath is original to the kris, but it might have more age than first appears. It looks to me as if this sheath has been aggressively refurbished. So Ben, the rattan on the stem probably is not all that old, but the sheath itself might well be. I can see where Jose sees evidence of a missing band and i think the wood has been refinished.

Dajak · 13th July 2008, 06:13 PM

Hi David the best off this can be see with an pic off the kris in the scabbard
and an close up from above .

It is an shame to refurbished an old scabbard I see this also a lot with very old javanese krissen with scabbards that are at least 300 years old .

Ben

David · 13th July 2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

It is an shame to refurbished an old scabbard I see this also a lot with very old javanese krissen with scabbards that are at least 300 years old .

Ben, i am not necessarily arguing with your viewpoint, but if taken from the perspective i believe you might find from within the culture itself, it would be a great disrespect to the keris to allow it to live in an old beat-up wrongko. So if you are a Javanese man without the means to afford to commission a brand new wrongko, refurbishing the old one might be your best move. From the collector viewpoint we might like to see the wrongko in it's untouched condition, but as an owner from within the culture might have a different view. Of course we no doubt see many pieces refurbished strictly for sale to the collector community as well. That might well be the case with Bill's Moro kris here. Hard to say.

Dajak · 13th July 2008, 07:28 PM

I look it at this way the kris that we are looking at is not from an person that has no money .

So the scabbard rebefurbished but was no need because he did have money,

the only thing I can come up with that it has loose his scabbard and an new one has been made for it . (nothing wrong with it )

An Javanese kris with gold on it did not belong to the common people some
javanese krissen had more than one scabbard .

Ben

David · 13th July 2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

I look it at this way the kris that we are looking at is not from an person that has no money .

So the scabbard rebefurbished but was no need because he did have money,

the only thing I can come up with that it has loose his scabbard and an new one has been made for it . (nothing wrong with it )

An Javanese kris with gold on it did not belong to the common people some
javanese krissen had more than one scabbard .

Ben

Ben, i don't think that we can necessarily assume that the owner of a keris or kris in their own cultural setting is well off simply because they own a weapon that has ivory of gold on it. As you know, these weapons are often passed down through generations. Just because someone's great, great grandpa was a member of court does not necessarily translate to present day wealth. That, unfortunately, is part of the reason why we see some of these very high end kris on the market now. They are being sold off by families that are in need of money more than their heritage.

kronckew · 13th July 2008, 09:02 PM

from what little reading i've found, moro kris and barong were meant to be used in battle, and the scabbards were generally discarded before or during battle and maybe picked up later, maybe not. they also tended to be held together by a few rattan bands such that the whole scabbarded sword could be swung at an enemy and on hitting, cutting thru the simple rattan bands, which caught many american and spanish by surprise just before they were cut in half. upshot is moro pieces might have many scabbards over a lifetime, with higher class pieces like this less likely to have their scabbard discarded and not picked up, so more likely to be repaired rather than replaced, but still more likely to be replaced than the original it was made with.

10th July 2008, 12:39 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I do think it is an old scabbard if it is not original - look at the place where a metal band was near the top.....Also the patina on the wood looks old as well as the style of carving is right.....

13th July 2008, 04:07 PM	#2
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I see more use on the kris than on the scabbard that is why I ask . And the rattan on the scabbard defnetily don't look 100 years old . Bill can you make an pic off the kris in the scabbard from above. Thanks Ben

13th July 2008, 04:41 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I don't know if this sheath is original to the kris, but it might have more age than first appears. It looks to me as if this sheath has been aggressively refurbished. So Ben, the rattan on the stem probably is not all that old, but the sheath itself might well be. I can see where Jose sees evidence of a missing band and i think the wood has been refinished.

13th July 2008, 06:13 PM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi David the best off this can be see with an pic off the kris in the scabbard and an close up from above . It is an shame to refurbished an old scabbard I see this also a lot with very old javanese krissen with scabbards that are at least 300 years old . Ben

13th July 2008, 07:28 PM	#6
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I look it at this way the kris that we are looking at is not from an person that has no money . So the scabbard rebefurbished but was no need because he did have money, the only thing I can come up with that it has loose his scabbard and an new one has been made for it . (nothing wrong with it ) An Javanese kris with gold on it did not belong to the common people some javanese krissen had more than one scabbard . Ben

13th July 2008, 09:02 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	from what little reading i've found, moro kris and barong were meant to be used in battle, and the scabbards were generally discarded before or during battle and maybe picked up later, maybe not. they also tended to be held together by a few rattan bands such that the whole scabbarded sword could be swung at an enemy and on hitting, cutting thru the simple rattan bands, which caught many american and spanish by surprise just before they were cut in half. upshot is moro pieces might have many scabbards over a lifetime, with higher class pieces like this less likely to have their scabbard discarded and not picked up, so more likely to be repaired rather than replaced, but still more likely to be replaced than the original it was made with.