Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-...akkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

[David]

I would just like to add a word about similarity of form. In the world there are just so many shapes. Every culture has a fascination and deep seated mythologies about birds. They are often used as motifs in all of these cultures and when stylized the similarities become even stronger. As a trained percussionist i have often marveled at the similarities between the ritual rhythms of various cultures spread all across the globe. I was recently noting a rhythm in some Indonesian music that sounds very much like one i know that originated in the Congo. There are, infact, root rhythms that transcend all cultures. This is not because these cultures have had contact with each other. It is merely the nature of things.
Someone just recently pointed out the pyamid at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh.
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory...

[Bill]

Originally Posted by David

Someone just recently pointed out the at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh.
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory...

can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill

can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

In addition, y-chromosome haplogroup P is found in Java, south america, carribean, egypt, and other places where there are pyramids. It has been a well-established theory that pyramid builders in the ancient times were also sea-faring people.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-...akkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

Thanks for the link. I am primarily interested in the relationship between the turks and aceh in sixteenth century. Turling wrote about such relationship.

I have no doubt that Islamic arabs from middle east reached the malay archipelago, but dna mapping suggests that they did not last long for their haplogroups did not take root in the malay archipelago.

Maybe they are just traders or traveling missionaries or even ancient tourists like ibn batuta.

Early yatagans have no anka pommels, but the blades were inlaid with gold and jewels using anka motif. Later when the yatagans got anka pommels, the inlaid bird motifs, generally, could no longer be found on the blade.

the yatagan of suleiman the magnificent is the good example.