Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:08 PM

are you telling me that the guy in yellow attire was holding a knife on his side? estimate the length of his kris using his fist. is that a knife?

can you tell me what is punal or punyal?

David · 29th June 2008, 11:15 PM

Well Baganing, look at the hilt form. Look at the sheath form. These are both common forms for punal and gunong. We can't see the blades in these pictures. Modern punals have gotten to be quite long in some cases. We see them for sale on eBay all the time. I have personally held quite a few of these modern longer punals in my hands on many occasion. I can not see the blades in these pictures, but i can almost guarantee that these blades do not have an asymetric blade like the kris, nor a gangya (insert spelling of your choice). These are not kris. Period. Learn your Moro weapons and we can discuss this later.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:20 PM

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:23 PM

since you are an expert, can you tell me what punal or punyal is? while you are at it, tell me also its etymology.

I can. can you?

David · 29th June 2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

I am not saying at all that eBay is a good source for research and you know it. What i am saying is that you don't know a kris from a punal and your credibility is shot. Period.
Of course, hilts and sheath vary, but the hilts and sheaths in the picture you linked to clearly shows that these are not kris. I am sorry that you don't fully understand what a kris is, but these are a different type of blade that doesn't have the gangya (separate or otherwise) that is necessary to distinguish the blade as a kris. Some call these punals. Some call them gugongs. But they are not kris.

David · 29th June 2008, 11:34 PM

Here is just one thread which showcases these large punals:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=punal
The word is Spanish. The etymology is not really important in this case, though i am so glad to hear that you know it.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:38 PM

I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself.

now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife?
You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:41 PM

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

RhysMichael · 29th June 2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:49 PM

by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me.

do you know what ethnographic means?

do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris?

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

David · 29th June 2008, 11:51 PM

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.

All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

baganing_balyan · 29th June 2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.

All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

29th June 2008, 11:08 PM	#1
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	are you telling me that the guy in yellow attire was holding a knife on his side? estimate the length of his kris using his fist. is that a knife? can you tell me what is punal or punyal?

29th June 2008, 11:15 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Well Baganing, look at the hilt form. Look at the sheath form. These are both common forms for punal and gunong. We can't see the blades in these pictures. Modern punals have gotten to be quite long in some cases. We see them for sale on eBay all the time. I have personally held quite a few of these modern longer punals in my hands on many occasion. I can not see the blades in these pictures, but i can almost guarantee that these blades do not have an asymetric blade like the kris, nor a gangya (insert spelling of your choice). These are not kris. Period. Learn your Moro weapons and we can discuss this later.

29th June 2008, 11:20 PM	#3
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs. Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

29th June 2008, 11:23 PM	#4
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	since you are an expert, can you tell me what punal or punyal is? while you are at it, tell me also its etymology. I can. can you?

29th June 2008, 11:34 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Here is just one thread which showcases these large punals: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=punal The word is Spanish. The etymology is not really important in this case, though i am so glad to hear that you know it.

29th June 2008, 11:38 PM	#7
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself. now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife? You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

29th June 2008, 11:41 PM	#8
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

29th June 2008, 11:49 PM	#10
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me. do you know what ethnographic means? do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris? ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me. Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

29th June 2008, 11:51 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me. All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer, No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.