Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Have you checked if those kris/kalis terms traditionaly exist in Mindanao?

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan?

Kris tulid? is it tul-id?

mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao?

They sound recent concoction to me.

[David]

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

Well, i think you would have to ask him that yourself.
As for Cato, you should also do that for yourself as well. To date it is probably the best, if not only, book don't specifically on the subject. I am sure it is not perfect, but you would still find much to learn in it.

[Bill]

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate.
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

i'm ilonggo, and grew up in partly in Dadiangas (gensan) a couple years in Marbel, and some families in Bo. obrero, davao. but that shouldn't matter, or should it?

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

.

can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means?

Since you ask, AFAIK "luma" is a term from Maguindanao that refers to a kris which is half wavy and half straight.
Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aocollage.html

[baganing_balyan]

mmmmm cato is one of his references.

Like that maguinadanaon kris should be dated in relation to the same krises known for their simple handles like that-- almost the same angular, clean design like t'boli swords sans bells. One does not have to wonder, geographically, tboli's and maguindanaos are neighbors.

[Battara]

David, I did not know that you have that now. I loved that piece.....