keris blade for comment.

[BSMStar]

Hi Captain,

Nitric acid (HNO3) is commonly used to etch meteorites (it removes iron faster than nickel)... it may work better for you to "open" or "lift" the grain of the pamor. But of course, if it is not available then sulfuric will work a little more slowly. Be careful of the concentration you use (5% nitric in 95% isopropyl alcohol works, slowly add acids to other diluents and not the other way around - it can be a violent reaction) and the exposures time that you allow to the acid, you do not want to be too aggressive. It sounds like you are off to a great start!

Phosphoric acid makes a great rust remover in extreme cases.

[tom hyle]

This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing.

[nechesh]

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys. Tom thanks for your kind words i realy enjoyed doing this ...ill post more pics when i get the gold back on it.

BSMStar thanks for the cool info very helpful ...now ill have to buy another old trade blade to have a play with

Hi Nachesh "i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture"
I see where you are comeing from here ..do you know what the traditional methods would have been?id love to know and i was hopeing someone with the knowhow would post and share the knowledge.I cant realy see how my methods could be that diffrent ...for sandpaper they would have just used a similar grade of stone and they presumably would have used arsenic and acid to etch it?

"Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture."I tried to be as respectful as i could believe me[ i put alot of time into makeing the staining process as traditional as i could] ....and i was perfectly aware that i could have just sanded the blade in five min,s useing a sanding pad on a angle grinder and then polished it useing a metal polishing wheel.But i chose to spend a day and a half sanding it by hand with 6 grades of sandpaper to near mirror polish[not an easy task i can tell you my hands were killing me at the end ].The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]
I am confident this method will work for any keris blade ive stained 2 other blades 1 before and 1 after and both responded equally well, it just a matter of how long you leave the blade in the solution[the longer you leave it the darker it becomes].Its not rocket science if you ask me the real secret to a good looking blade is how well it was forged originaly[if the beauty is there then the etch and stain will bring it out]

[nechesh]

Hi Smashy. I wasn't really questioning your sanding techniques. Traditionally a Bali blade would be polished though i am not particularly certain how this is actually done. As for your staining process, i give you kudos for grinding up your own from realgar. From what i know about the process the arsenic isn't used in the cleaning stage though. Usually that is done first and then a mixture of arsenic and lime juice is used to stain. Your method seemed a bit unorthodox, but if it worked.... It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways (for the spirit of the keris) and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I admire your enterprise, but i don't think battery acid is for me.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by nechesh

It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways

Hi nechesh,

First I would like to address that different acids would react differently with different substances. It is a matter of selecting the best acid for the job... To me, harshness is more of a degree of concentration or dilution than which acid is being used (in this case). Notice the concentrations I am suggesting. As to rust removal, I believe I stated in extreme cases (in other words, its already "junk"), and even then, dilution is an option I would suggest (always start with a less aggressive solution).

I can fully understand the Captain's position on what to do with blade that is less than "prime." Being a Japanese sword collector, one is always faces with the dilemma... is it valuable enough to sent it to Japan and have it re-polished at over $100 an inch (plus furniture... so you can rap up $3,000 to $5,000 into a sword real fast) or do something else (especially if the blade is only worth $500 even after being polished).... I have a hand made blade from around 1910, the Japanese will not accept for polish because it is not from the Samurai period (its their law). Now what do you do?

I would not take a "do it yourself" approach with an expensive Pusaka... but on a "reject" piece that I have nothing to lose.... It won't be the Indonesian way and it should not compete with their way, but as a last resort to "save" or bring "new life" to a piece, I think it is worth the experiment rather than shove it in a drawer to let it rust away. Who knows what we may learn? As for the better blades, I agree with you nechesh... let it be done the correct and traditional way.

I will try to post a picture of what can happen if one gets too aggressive with acid. It is a crying shame.

[BSMStar]

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris!

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by capt.smash

The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]

Captain,

I would add a word of caution using (such as car) battery acid... depending on the age of the battery, the acid can easily "burn" your skin. Try some on concrete and you will see what I mean. I recommend using the proper safety equipment (rubber gloves and glasses for you eyes), I would hate to hear about a fellow forumite being injured by acid of any kind.

As to the question should this be done or is it an improvement... it is a difficult and personal call that depends on the piece needing restoration, its condition and the skill of the person doing the restoration. I may cringe at some of the methods uses here, but if the Captain is happy and the results are good...

I do not believe we (who are not trained in the correct cultural methodology) can improve what was done before (at best it is modification, not an improvement). All that we can "improve" is the appearance that is personally pleasing verses its current condition. Is this the right thing to do? I believe this is at the heart of your question nechesh, a difficult question that depends on many elements I think.

[tom hyle]

Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos.

[nechesh]

Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

[Rick]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

Here's how it went down :

Tom :
" This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing. "

Nechesh :
" Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials. "

Tom:
" Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos. "

Nechesh :
" Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were. "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys , I certainly hope that you can possibly settle your differences via PM (personal message) I would be quite unhappy to see this thread get ugly .

If this is not an option for you then I would politely suggest that you both "explore the function of the 'Ignore' feature" to quote an esteemed moderator on this forum .

[BSMStar]

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright.

Are you out there?