2nd Caucasian Kindjal for comment

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Teodor,
I am in absolute agreement that the very act of posting an item is to invite constructive criticism and that if you do not want to hear or acknowledge that your item may or may not be what you had hoped then don't post. On the other hand comments and opinions can be proffered with tact and understanding and need not be in any way derisory or demeaning to get over a point.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Ward,
Having mentioned no names you are obviously aware that your responses are short and to the point, I wouldn't say curt. First may I say that I am grateful that you have taken the time and effort to respond and give your opinion on some of my pieces, you are obviously knowledgeable and I do appreciate the imparting of said knowledge. I wouldn't expect you to give false hope and to be fair I never suggested anywhere that you or anyone else should tell anybody anything other than your honest opinion. I am probably behind the times with regard to the beginning and ending of replies, my daughter tells me I'm a dinosaur and that this is for letter writing and not the net, I am retired and have time for the niceties and so will stick with them. The most important thing is the common interest we all share the posters and repliers for without them there would be no Forum.
Regards,
Norman.

[Tim Simmons]

To fight your corner here, you really have to be sure or know your interest, and do the research. The mysterious "rightness" in one item is completely different in another. All collectors have struggled with this sort of work at one time or another.
The items in question are indeed better than many "right" stuff I have seen that I am sure are not apprentice work due to location and time frame. All adding to the difficulties, just that these do not appear to be truly old.
Auction houses some better than others, are only expert in selling!!!!!!!!! Most often thier knowledge is only based on the price an object made at the last same category of sales whether they knew anything about it or not. They are salespeople only, lets drink there mini bar .

[David]

Norman, i certainly agree that it is important that we all respond to one another in a civil and understanding manner. That said, having followed these 2 kindjal threads, i do not see anywhere that any member was uncivil with Gavin.
As for remarks made about the skill level of the creator of any piece, unless i made it myself, or my father, uncle or grandfather was the craftsman, i see no reason whatsoever to take offense. We should be able to separate ourselves from the things we collect and i should hope that criticism of my knife is not criticism of me.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Lew,
Agreed, there is a vast resource of knowledge here and it is a pleasure and a privilege to be able to tap that resource at will. As to experts, along with their expertise comes a certain blase approach to lesser specimens of the genre, weapons I mean not people, this is to be understood, I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me. Usually when someone finds out my ex profession out come the holiday photographs or the tired old S.L.R. from the cupboard but I have to say I have never been unnecessarily blunt or short but neither have I given them false hope that "Yes you could be the next, insert name of famous photographer of your choice, honest you really could!" Everyone of you are correct in that honesty and candour should never be sacrificed but neither should sensitivity and understanding.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Yes, I think you have to be particularly sharp, pardon the pun, to enter the Chinese antique market.

[David]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me.

That's funny Norm, i've been a pro shooter for more than 30 years now and have always considered anything larger than 2 1/4 as those unnecessarily large format cameras.

[ward]

getting back to the original post. Either you see the differece between this piece in workmanship style and form and a 19th century piece or you do not. If you are happy with the piece fine otherwise move on. I personally feel the piece was made somewhere between 1950-1990.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Tim,
I have seen many things described incorrectly at auction houses and agreed just because they say it is so does not make it necessarily so, see the disclaimer. As to the "rightness" factor I believe this can only be determined absolutely, if there is any doubt, by handling the object in question indeed the only times I have bought a pup, several in fact, was over the net with only photographs to guide me. Kindjals are not my area of interest or knowledge, although I would not pass up the opportunity to acquire a nice one given the chance, therefore I am not defending Gav's notions of the "rightness" of his acquisitions I was only concerned that some responses were a bit insensitive.
We are all different and perhaps what one person finds insensitive others do not, each to their own I guess is the only answer.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David,
As I said in the previous post, each to their own. You'll be telling me next that glass plates are a thing of the past.
Regards,
Norman.

[David]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

As I said in the previous post, each to their own. You'll be telling me next that glass plates are a thing of the past.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Congratuations Gav. I am glad that you finally got the "expert" assessment that you have been wanting on this piece. Funny thing about "experts"....if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear. I am not trying to say that you latest "expert" is not absolutely correct. He may well be. Personally i know nothing about these knives and to me it looks quite nice. But as someone who has spent a lot of time collecting and learning about keris i have discovered that things are not always what they appear to be and sometimes people deliberately create things to deceive. Not necessarily the case here, but always a possibility.
Many of the people on this forum who have taken the time to try to answer your questions about this piece have a great deal of combined knowledge about these knives. Some have made it their specialty. Doesn't mean they are right about your kindjal either, but they didn't have to respond to your post, they have done so with good will in the spirit of collecting and sharing knowledge. You might do youself well not to alienate an entire community of knowledgeable collectors just because you found an expert who told you what you wanted to hear.

Hi David,

Thank you for your posting, I whole heartedly agree about things never appearing what they seems to be and that a lot of items are being created to fool the unwarey, we all at one time or another have been bitten by these deceivers, I too have knowingly passed on goods of very questionable backgrounds that I known not to be the real deal to experts who had to have the item, heck I know, I made the damn thing and they even went to to the trouble of telling me the whole history of the type of item in question but, this is not a reflection of who I am or what I do. How does one talk an expert out of what he wants so dearly.
I know I have been collecting since a boy and weapons for the last 12 years or so. Although I don't have millions to spend on such toys that I desire but like so many here I know a good deal more than most and I too have handled vast amounts of all styles of edged weapons in some very fine collections and at every arms far for much longer than the 12 years, not that this should be taken in an arogant manner either, these weapons are a passion of mine, not something that I want a pat on the back for as mentioned elsewhere.
It is disturbing for me that those who are considered both by myself, others here and themselves as experts, should be able to offer up a little more than links to others webpages and shrug off this piece as a fake, although there have been others with very good points and posting made with reasons stated, which is most important to everyone concerned viewing these threads as it is the only way for everyone, including themselves to learn further.
The straight out calling this piece a fake or poor quality is of little concern to me, if it is, it is, that is fine and cannot be changed....but what you say about possibly alienating myself from these people because I heard what I wanted to hear from another, should not put others offside, as humans we all continue to learn and if we think we know it all the learning has stopped. I have offered up images from myself and opinions of others who are very successful in their fields and it is their livelyhood too. By placing these things back on the table so to speak in this forum I would hope others here will continue to offer up images and real facts and reference points to enhance the learning process by all and debunk what more I have offered up...
Thanks again for your interest in this thread.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

"The well known antique jeweller and watch maker"

Tell me Gav did you ask this expert how many kindjal has he handled in his career? I have an old gentleman down the street from where I work who is also an expert jeweler and watch maker since 1940 but I don't think he knows much about kindjals? I would not ask a dentist to give me his opinion on my cardiogram I would seek out a cardiologist.

Lew

Hi Lew, it was not the Kindjal that I took it there for, it was from the advise of Alex that I did so and I took it to a European born family of jewellers for further interest. These guys like your jeweller Lew, do certainly known about quality workmanship, age and styles through all mediums I would think, if not they have just lucked their way through life.

Originally Posted by fernando

When you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat . On the other hand, a certain person may be able to grade a determined silver work, from simply stamped to thouroughly chased, whereas not necessarily knowing how to grade a kinzhal per se .
... Just my humble opinnion, Lew.
Fernando

Thanks for the proverb Fernando, so true, I should have looked below before replying but am doing so in order of postings, thanks.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Fernando

I am sure there are modern silversmiths who do masterful work but you need to look at the object as a whole and not through a jewelers lupe.

Lew

Thanks Lew, it was as a whole it was studied, and studied closely.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hello,
My initial reaction to the 'Kindjal' posts was not to get involved in something I was not familiar with nor to get involved in the subsequent "toing and froing". I do feel, although this may alienate me from some of the Forum, that the entire tone of this debate was set at the very beginning of the first post with a less than necessary remark with regard to the skill level of the Kindjal maker. It seems to me only polite and courteous to give your opinion in a gracious and friendly manner in the knowledge that the recipient has spent good money and may be in some occasions without the necessary knowledge to fully understand what they have purchased good or not so good, after all that is why they have posted in the first place, to accrue the knowledge to facilitate their collecting bug. I am always disappointed when short one sentence answers are given, usually negative, without the courtesy of a Dear so and so, Hi so and so etc., and are finished without a Regards so and so etc. Having said all this I am grateful for the knowledge base present in this Forum I just wish those with a greater degree of this knowledge would be a bit more tolerant of folks with more run of the mill aspirations with regard to their collections, after all most of us have fiscal constraints that preclude us from purchasing bits with the 'wow factor' although we may turn up with one occasionally with luck and a bit of that 'Knowledge'. This reply is aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general. Please remember most of us do this for pleasure and not for gain and our communication with each other should be pleasurable also, even if the opinion given is not what the recipient would prefer to hear but an honest answer given honestly but always with courtesy.
Regards,
Norman.

Extremely well spoken Norman with great courtesy. I can appreciate not everyone can or will communicate in the manner that many are acustomed, that is fine, I still have trouble though, listening to those who make debunking comments without offering up a "well see that there Gav, in year blah blah the standard for that was this and that feature there was not found until date so and so and so on and so forth, links provided are not as clear in many cases as the images I have provided and at no where near the light or magnification so i think some elements of those presented have been lost but I am not a photographer, but I do take photographs so I can comment at some level.
I still ask to see comparrisions in collections of those who have passed comment either good or bad to point and out the where fors and why fors as to why this piece in question is what some think it is from the images, but I think the alienation excuse may be quietly reserved for not doing so.

Originally Posted by TVV

For myself, I have always thought that every time I post an item for discussion in this forum and ask for opinion from the other members here, I have to be willing to accept or at least consider their comments, even if said comments may not be what I have hoped to read for the item in question. If I am unwilling to consider any opinion different from my own, why even bother posting here and asking, unless I am merely looking for a pat on the back?
Regards,
Teodor

All comments are accepted and noted, the problem lays with no reply to the debunking images and questions that I have posted, it seems the learning stops dead because of that. Are we all expected to hear "that's no good" and that's the end of it? All comments are considered, processed and replied to with a wishing to know more about their reasons why rather than a I know so or I feel. Sure feeling has a lot to do with anything we do in this world but facts support or debunk facts and without facts there is no knowledge of anything.

Thank you everyone for your interest in this posting, unfortunately I am out of time for now and will address each and every other response tomorrow night. Please in the mean time if so inclined cover off a few of the other questions I have offered up like the UV light and the further images in relation to the comments made, it is the only was to learn and move foward. If after all possible knowldege has been exhausted and it turns out to be a late made piece i will as always be happy to acknowledge the fact, I do hope those who dismiss it with out fulling viewing all that is offered up would in turn acknowledge that they too have learnt something from the postings, if and when it is varified as authentic again further down the track.

very best regards

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

The straight out calling this piece a fake or poor quality is of little concern to me, if it is, it is, that is fine and cannot be changed....but what you say about possibly alienating myself from these people because I heard what I wanted to hear from another, should not put others offside, as humans we all continue to learn and if we think we know it all the learning has stopped.

Gavin, i think you have not quite grasped what i was trying to say. Probably my fault for not being clear enough. It is not the facts of these threads which i personally found alienating. Perhaps i read too much between your lines, the the post which prompted me to write what i did came off to me as "I found some some real experts, they told me all you guys are wrong and i was right....so there!" Followed, of course, by a very large raspberry.
Now, this may not have been you intention, but it is certainly the way it came off to me and i would guess probably some others. Norman (and yourself) make some good points about knowledgable members sometimes being too hard on certain items that get posted and of course if someone knocks a knife you own you want to hear solid facts as to why, especially if you thought it was something greater than what people are making it out to be. The difference i see here is that while some members have knocked your kindjal (an object), you seem to me knocking the the members (actual people). This is what i found to be possibly alienating, not the mere fact that you have found your own experts who disagree with the members here. Most of our membership is pretty good about admitting they were wrong when presented with facts that show they were.
BTW, you seem you want very specific evidence from the forum members as to why they believe your kindjals are not quite kosher. What evidence (other than their say so) did your experts give you that they are indeed authentic antiques?
Keep in mind Gavin that i've got no horse in this race. I know nothing about kindjals though i do like to think i know something about quality. I could clearly see the points of forumites who remarked negatively on your first kindjal. I am on the fence about the second. The silverwork and neillo look quite beautiful to my eye. I don't know enough about the blades to know whether or not the style is period. It's a nice knife regardless of it's age or origins.
What i suggest is that everyone just take a step back and take a deep breathe. I don't think any member here intended to disrespect you with their comments about your kindjals. Their comments were on the knife itself. I also think that they are trying their best to communicate with you just what it is about these knives that don't sit right with them and if you gave it some time more might come out. And they may well be wrong about this last one. I am just afraid that rubbing your expert's opinions in their faces, especially ones that are equally unsubstantiated, is not likely to get you positive responses.