silver mounted file knife

Berkley · 4th May 2008, 09:30 PM

Not for purposes of identification, but I'll take a quantity of silver over an equivalent amount of white metal any day

.

Battara · 6th May 2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berkley

Not for purposes of identification, but I'll take a quantity of silver over an equivalent amount of white metal any day

.

Dido.......

Berkley · 27th July 2009, 04:26 AM

At the suggestion of Jim McDougall, I am resurrecting this thread in search of additional comments and insights. The link to the seller's pictures in my initial post no longer is valid, so I am attaching some of those here. I still share Tim's opinion that the decoration is from some Himalayan region.

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 06:03 AM

Hi Berkeley,
Thank you for posting this, and I'm glad we get another shot at this!
I seldom disagree with Artzi's extremely accurate assessments, and this does have the distinct appearance of the shafra, however I think there may be an explanation for the conflicting identifications in yet another conundrum created via the trade routes between India and Arabia.

Also, the note by John Powell, another man I have always had great respect for for his outstanding work on the weapons of Nepal, in terming this a 'bank' may have been referencing the 'hook' type dynamic of the blade. The most commonly known bank is of course a crescent shaped hook blade usually described as a sickle form.

In "Islamic Weapons" Maghreb to Mughul" (A. Tirri, 2003) on p. 95, fig. 56, there are two knives of the 18th-19th c. termed shafra/matwa and of the Arabian Peninsula. These have the distinct form seen on this knife, with the cylindrical handle type hilt, the blade with the sharply angled hook, however these blades have the distinct raised central ridge of janbiyyas.
These are shown classified as Indo-Arab, suggesting a relationship in the form of course with India, and probably referencing this variance.

I am inclined to agree that the floral motif and silverwork appears to be of Nepali-Tibetan type, and for these influences to be found in Nepal-Bengal regions connected to trade into Hyderabad, where profound connections to the Arabian Peninsula have long been well established is not unusual.
Clearly, this piece is more likely later, but reflecting those influences.

In our earlier communication I noted the gile blade of the Afar in Ethiopian regions seems to have this type of angled blade. It is interesting to note the diffusion continuing to the east probably reflecting these same influences via the Red Sea trade.

Thanks again for posting this, and as always, I look forward to other thoughts.

All best regards,
Jim

Berkley · 28th July 2009, 02:40 AM

Jim,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful and scholarly comments. You have finally galvanized me into ordering a copy of Tirri's book.
Berk

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2009, 02:49 AM

You're very welcome Berk! It was great to look further into this one, and I always look forward to more from those who collect in these areas.

The Tirri book really is a beautifully photographed book which focuses on the grade of weapons most often encountered by collectors, and therefore serves as a comprehensive guidebook. As in most references, there are some points of contention, and one wishes there were more cited references to support some of the identification and captions, but I do find it most helpful in many cases.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 28th July 2009, 04:03 AM

Hello, here's some more material to the debate.

In "Arms and Armour of Arabia" p.78, Elgood discusses the shafra, also known as a sikkin, al-khusa, rish or matwa, in various parts of the Arabian peninsula. It is a curved single edged knife, often worn behind the jambiya. They are often decorated with silver.

Of particular notice:
Omani silverworking centres include Nizwa, Rustaq, Ibir, Sur, and Bahla. Silverwork in Rustaq is identifiable by its flower motif.

Emanuel

Rick · 29th July 2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Dido.......

And Aeneas .

Battara · 29th July 2009, 02:29 AM

I also want to add one other thought to the discussion.

Like Arab and Turkish jambiyas, this piece is decorated on one side only . The back side is against the body. To my knowledge, Tibetan and Nepalese pieces on their hilts do not do the same.

Berkley · 29th July 2009, 05:17 AM

I believe the Himalayan Hypothesis has been pretty thoroughly and convincingly put to rest. Many thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion.
Berk

kahnjar1 · 11th August 2009, 04:31 AM

This thread has been playing on my mind as to the true identity of the piece in question, and I think I have the answer. Found this in Elgoods book Arabian Arms which I feel conclusively settles the argument.
Those (including myself) who settled on SHAFRA are also correct, but as has been previously mentioned here, the Shafra is the usual name given to the small knife which sits behind the Jambiya/Khanjar.
The correct name for this piece appears to be AL KHUSA, which according to the text is the name given in Northern Arabia, and SHAFRA in that area is regarded as the knife worn behind the Jambiya/Khanjar. In the south and northeast however the term Shafra is used for both.
The drawings show how the Khusa is worn, either on a belt or shoulder bandolier.
Regards Stuart

Oriental-Arms · 12th August 2009, 08:31 PM

Pease have a look at this set:

The Jambiya dagger in this set is most surely Arab, so will be the Shafra. (For a similar set see also Tirri p 95, Fig 56).

Years ago I had a long discussion with John Powell regarding the origin of this knife. He had a similar knife in his collection and supported the Nepali origin. Unfortunately we never agreed. Yet, after all I do believe in the Arab origin

27th July 2009, 04:26 AM	#3
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Back again At the suggestion of Jim McDougall, I am resurrecting this thread in search of additional comments and insights. The link to the seller's pictures in my initial post no longer is valid, so I am attaching some of those here. I still share Tim's opinion that the decoration is from some Himalayan region. Attached Images

11th August 2009, 04:31 AM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,799	True ID I think This thread has been playing on my mind as to the true identity of the piece in question, and I think I have the answer. Found this in Elgoods book Arabian Arms which I feel conclusively settles the argument. Those (including myself) who settled on SHAFRA are also correct, but as has been previously mentioned here, the Shafra is the usual name given to the small knife which sits behind the Jambiya/Khanjar. The correct name for this piece appears to be AL KHUSA, which according to the text is the name given in Northern Arabia, and SHAFRA in that area is regarded as the knife worn behind the Jambiya/Khanjar. In the south and northeast however the term Shafra is used for both. The drawings show how the Khusa is worn, either on a belt or shoulder bandolier. Regards Stuart Attached Images

12th August 2009, 08:31 PM	#12
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Nepali or Arab ?? Pease have a look at this set: The Jambiya dagger in this set is most surely Arab, so will be the Shafra. (For a similar set see also Tirri p 95, Fig 56). Years ago I had a long discussion with John Powell regarding the origin of this knife. He had a similar knife in his collection and supported the Nepali origin. Unfortunately we never agreed. Yet, after all I do believe in the Arab origin

4th May 2008, 09:30 PM	#1
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Not for purposes of identification, but I'll take a quantity of silver over an equivalent amount of white metal any day .

27th July 2009, 06:03 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Hi Berkeley, Thank you for posting this, and I'm glad we get another shot at this! I seldom disagree with Artzi's extremely accurate assessments, and this does have the distinct appearance of the shafra, however I think there may be an explanation for the conflicting identifications in yet another conundrum created via the trade routes between India and Arabia. Also, the note by John Powell, another man I have always had great respect for for his outstanding work on the weapons of Nepal, in terming this a 'bank' may have been referencing the 'hook' type dynamic of the blade. The most commonly known bank is of course a crescent shaped hook blade usually described as a sickle form. In "Islamic Weapons" Maghreb to Mughul" (A. Tirri, 2003) on p. 95, fig. 56, there are two knives of the 18th-19th c. termed shafra/matwa and of the Arabian Peninsula. These have the distinct form seen on this knife, with the cylindrical handle type hilt, the blade with the sharply angled hook, however these blades have the distinct raised central ridge of janbiyyas. These are shown classified as Indo-Arab, suggesting a relationship in the form of course with India, and probably referencing this variance. I am inclined to agree that the floral motif and silverwork appears to be of Nepali-Tibetan type, and for these influences to be found in Nepal-Bengal regions connected to trade into Hyderabad, where profound connections to the Arabian Peninsula have long been well established is not unusual. Clearly, this piece is more likely later, but reflecting those influences. In our earlier communication I noted the gile blade of the Afar in Ethiopian regions seems to have this type of angled blade. It is interesting to note the diffusion continuing to the east probably reflecting these same influences via the Red Sea trade. Thanks again for posting this, and as always, I look forward to other thoughts. All best regards, Jim

28th July 2009, 02:40 AM	#5
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Jim, Thank you very much for your thoughtful and scholarly comments. You have finally galvanized me into ordering a copy of Tirri's book. Berk

28th July 2009, 02:49 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	You're very welcome Berk! It was great to look further into this one, and I always look forward to more from those who collect in these areas. The Tirri book really is a beautifully photographed book which focuses on the grade of weapons most often encountered by collectors, and therefore serves as a comprehensive guidebook. As in most references, there are some points of contention, and one wishes there were more cited references to support some of the identification and captions, but I do find it most helpful in many cases. All the best, Jim

28th July 2009, 04:03 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, here's some more material to the debate. In "Arms and Armour of Arabia" p.78, Elgood discusses the shafra, also known as a sikkin, al-khusa, rish or matwa, in various parts of the Arabian peninsula. It is a curved single edged knife, often worn behind the jambiya. They are often decorated with silver. Of particular notice: Omani silverworking centres include Nizwa, Rustaq, Ibir, Sur, and Bahla. Silverwork in Rustaq is identifiable by its flower motif. Emanuel

29th July 2009, 02:29 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	I also want to add one other thought to the discussion. Like Arab and Turkish jambiyas, this piece is decorated on one side only . The back side is against the body. To my knowledge, Tibetan and Nepalese pieces on their hilts do not do the same.

29th July 2009, 05:17 AM	#10
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	I believe the Himalayan Hypothesis has been pretty thoroughly and convincingly put to rest. Many thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion. Berk