Please help on bronze axes

[kronckew]

being an avid CSI fan, i suspect that someone here either is or knows someone who is a CSI or forensic lab tech. they generally have tool mark libraries for finding out what tools may have been involved in crimes, they may recognise or be able to look up the tool marks.

my initial thought was they were vice jaw marks which may have been added by some bright spark recently (last century or so )

[fernando]

We are also being pulverized with CSI over here ...sometimes different episodes showing simultaneously in different TV chanels .
But in the due context, i was more fascinated by Sherlock Holmes. Pitty he isn't around to reveal ( Dr. Watson ) the underwear colours of the individual that punched those marks on the axes .

[Jeff Pringle]

The closely spaced triangles definitely look like vice jaw grip marks, the smearing of the marks on the right side makes it look like the piece shifted a bit, not unusual when trying to grip non-square items and work on them with any pressure.
The only marks I’ve seen in my long history of looking at metal that are similar to the little wave marks are from electric grinders, if the tool has a threaded shaft for attaching the abrasive discs, and the threads protrude from the nut affixing the disc (which they usually do), then if the worker touches the work piece with the shaft of the tool (which they occasionally do) it will skip along the surface and leave impressions of the first couple threads in a regular pattern like that.

[katana]

Sorry double post

[fernando]

I am not sure i understand Jeff's thesis, due to language difficulties.
Thread marks from the slip rotation of a grinding disc screw shaft ... wouldn't they be paralel, instead of wavy (curved ) ? And why interrupted and not continuous ?
Also if a disc grinder was used, why can't we see the respective grinding evidence?
Jaw marks from a vise grip, or even from a regular screw vise ... in this case, we should find similar marks, even if more faded, in the opposite side of the oject, which is not the case; actually the other side of the blade has no "mechanical" looking marks at all, as neither the rest of the axe. Also in the case of a vise clamping action, the position seems very unhandy(assymetrical and angled ); why then the reason ?
I hope i make myself understood and am not talking nonsense
Fernando

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

The closely spaced triangles definitely look like vice jaw grip marks, the smearing of the marks on the right side makes it look like the piece shifted a bit, not unusual when trying to grip non-square items and work on them with any pressure.
The only marks I’ve seen in my long history of looking at metal that are similar to the little wave marks are from electric grinders, if the tool has a threaded shaft for attaching the abrasive discs, and the threads protrude from the nut affixing the disc (which they usually do), then if the worker touches the work piece with the shaft of the tool (which they occasionally do) it will skip along the surface and leave impressions of the first couple threads in a regular pattern like that.

Seems a good possible explaination Jeff, especially the 'thread' markings

However, what doesn't make sense is why they are there. If this is a 'high end' fake, why would the evidence be left for all to see. All the marks seem to have occured after the 'hammer shaping' ....which I would assume would have been the last manufacturing process. So can it be assumed these marks happened later...and if so, was there a purpose....testing of the bronze
If these heads were artifically 'patinated' , the sort of chemicals used such as ammonia, urea etc to 'induce' this, would not require tongs or mole grips to place the item in solution. A number of Chinese fakers bury them in urine soaked, highly mineralised soil.


Regards David

[Rick]

Could they have been 'cleaned up' before sale ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

Could they have been 'cleaned up' before sale ?

I don't know, Rick
If such "cleaning" took place, it would have to be a thorough job, which would hardly neglect to erase the existing marks we can see now.
Also the object is covered of intense beating, which then had to be done after the said cleaning ... againg failling to smash these bizarre marks, which appear not to have been deformed by both treatments; their edges look intact.

[katana]

I hope this makes sense...

if you look at 'underlined section' 2 the 'symbol' (I'm not saying it is, but is a better description) seems to be repeated above 'section 3'. The 'symbol' in section 1 seems to have a similar shape (albeit, slightly 'deformed') as 'section 2&3' . The 'symbol' above section 4 also has the 'elements' of symbol 2 but a little more spaced.
I may be seeing things that aren't there, ( saw Elvis walking his dog yesterday ) but there seems to be a recurring pattern on that section that does not look 'mechanical'.
I also have to point out I have no idea as to scale i.e. I have no idea of the dimensions of these marks.

I may be drawing BIG conclusions from very little clues


Regards David

[fernando]

Originally Posted by katana

... So can it be assumed these marks happened later...and if so, was there a purpose....testing of the bronze
Regards David

That came to my mind, David; some sort of testing punches ... not clampings.
Fernando