Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

A. G. Maisey · 9th April 2008, 03:13 AM

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

ferrylaki · 9th April 2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

Hi Alan,
Thanks Alot for your advices. I found it very very difficult on shaping the greneng. We use a small jeweller saw here. and always manage to break the saw. I'll try using hack saw and small round files on the greneng.
I'll take some pictures on the keris we're working and some measures of the keris. Thank you for every advices.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 9th April 2008, 01:44 PM

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

ferrylaki · 10th April 2008, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

This keris is the first project which start to take its shape.
the picture took this morning ( 05.40am jakarta time) .
the greneng work done using small jewellers saw, done by a very skilled man for sure. when I find the fact using small jewellers saw is too diffficult to do, I start looking for another method for the greneng work. I really greatfull for Alan's suggestion. I'll try it on my next keris project. I'm still looking a suitable dhapur and ricikan style for this "saton" . A straight keris it gonna be , for a beginner like my self tilam upih would be great. I'm planning to make a PBX style...thick blade, odo-odo, etc.
Just cant wait till next week to start.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 10th April 2008, 05:40 AM

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

ferrylaki · 10th April 2008, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

Hi Alan,
the angel your talking about, the condong leleh.
I have a feeling that my saton has too much angel. this is a kelengan keris.
tilam sari would be great. thanks

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 10th April 2008, 07:10 AM

Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man.

You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably.

You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.

9th April 2008, 03:13 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type. You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone. The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat. You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them. The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge. The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

9th April 2008, 01:44 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

10th April 2008, 05:40 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of. The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

10th April 2008, 07:10 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man. You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably. You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.