Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

ferrylaki · 8th April 2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemmythesmith

Hi Michel, well done! A nice job-I like the "topographical" effect on the blade, nice shape too. I'm nearly done with another patrem which I've opted for a gongo iras brojol. If you let me know the diameter the mendak needs to be I have made a die for patrem mendak so I can stamp them from one piece-could send you one roughed out in copper if you wish, makes life a wee bit easier

The patra carvings are not easy to get looking right-my new patrem has a horn Solo hilt and that was a swine to carve, and to get symetrical(ish)

Hi Michel,
nice small keris you have there. as you mention before, the harder part of keris making is making the detail(recikan) of the keris it self. In making the greneng we often use a very small saw similar to a saw we use on playwood. it is a very time concuming in making the greneng couse the sawing it self need high concentration and skill...

the other harder part is making the sogokan. what did you use for making the sogokan? a small grinder is an option, but it very risky . we some time use a special steel chisel for the sogokan and pijitan work.

About the mendak, we still can find a very small mendak which fit for a patrem here in Jakarta. Not always available but we still can find it.
I recon your keris handle is a little bit larger for the keris. but the warangka is a very nice job...Love your warangka...very nive job, congratulation on your patrem. Let us know if you dicide to make another keris.

Good day,
FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2008, 09:49 AM

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

ferrylaki · 9th April 2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

I'm planning to buy a grinder for my keris project, but as Alan mention before about grinder fact, I guess a cold steel chisel would be just fine. spending more hours for the ricikan is the best way to make keris just like the old times.

people nowdays use grinder to shape the " odo odo" and the " gigir sapi"
and the result is more damage for biginers .
"It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade" as Alan said...than I must practice my patience first before I start working on my sogokan...couse if dont have patience you could destroy an entirely job on the ricikan. I found "no way back" on the ricikan job.

As an information Michel. I'm also trying a small mendak for my keris, it's not a patrem but its smaller than a normal keris...hope a manage to find two or three so I can offfer my spare for you... good day every body...

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 9th April 2008, 03:13 AM

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

ferrylaki · 9th April 2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

Hi Alan,
Thanks Alot for your advices. I found it very very difficult on shaping the greneng. We use a small jeweller saw here. and always manage to break the saw. I'll try using hack saw and small round files on the greneng.
I'll take some pictures on the keris we're working and some measures of the keris. Thank you for every advices.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 9th April 2008, 01:44 PM

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

ferrylaki · 10th April 2008, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

This keris is the first project which start to take its shape.
the picture took this morning ( 05.40am jakarta time) .
the greneng work done using small jewellers saw, done by a very skilled man for sure. when I find the fact using small jewellers saw is too diffficult to do, I start looking for another method for the greneng work. I really greatfull for Alan's suggestion. I'll try it on my next keris project. I'm still looking a suitable dhapur and ricikan style for this "saton" . A straight keris it gonna be , for a beginner like my self tilam upih would be great. I'm planning to make a PBX style...thick blade, odo-odo, etc.
Just cant wait till next week to start.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

Michel · 8th April 2008, 10:40 AM

Hi Alan,
Thank you for your kind words.
Yes, sulfur and salt do not stain properly a blade, the mixture prepared as you explained, using only sulfur and rice water, seems to eat away the weaker metal in my case the iron. the nickel resisting better appears in surface and gives these topographical irregularities. I think the salt is only accelerating the process (it took 24 hours only). I have not utilized rice water, only plain water, and am just wondering why rice water. Nik Rashidin Nick Hussein, who gave me the recipe, told me "rice water" also. I think there is a chemist in the forum, may be he could explain.
I have utilized the recipe on an old blade which was in my eyes completely pamorless with a decent result. I do not know how Henk (of the forum) saw that that blade was with pamor and encourage me to stain it.

Hi Lemythesmith
Thank you also for appreciating my efforts but I am a long way from the quality of your work. My peksi is 4.5 mm in diameter and the hulu is 12 mm diameter at its base. But I do not think that I would be able to adapt a mendak on the base of rought out coper base cup. I am no jeweler and lack that sort of experience and tools.

Hi Ferrylaki,
Thank you for your comments. To answer your questions : my ricikan were all done with files, as the greneng. I do not use a small grinder . As you say: it is too risky. A mistake is so easily done and often cannot be corrected.
You are right, my handle is a bit too big for the size of the keris. And it is the second one. My initial one was even larger and I had to redo it homothetically smaller. I think that my reference, also a patrem, has also a too large handle.
The answer to that is to do a third handle, smaller !
Thank you for suggesting to look in Jakarta for a smaller mendak. Mine is 6mm internal diameter and 15 mm external diameter and my hulu 12 mm. Now if I remake a correct sized handle, I will probably loose an other millimeter or two on the exterior diameter of the base of the hulu, so about 10 mm. Do you really think one can find such a small mendak ? If yes, it can be mailed in an envelop, if I cannot come and fetch it in Jakarta !
I will certainly make other krisses, but slowly ! An other day, I will show you my kris Panjang. An other size !
Thanks to all of you for your advices
Michel

Henk · 8th April 2008, 07:42 PM

Michel,

A very fine keris you made there.

But i also like the scabbard you made. Can you tell me how you made the tip and what material did you use to make the tip?

Michel · 8th April 2008, 10:03 PM

Hi Henk,
Thank you for the compliment. The tip is made of vegetable ivory as they call it. In fact it is tagua nut. A nut coming from a palm tree growing in South America. Extremely hard nuts, very similar to ivory hardness that can be cut and filed just as ivory. The nuts are not as large as ivory ! so the pieces you can cut and make with Tagua nuts are small (5 to 8 cm)
I had it come from South America.
Regards
Michel

8th April 2008, 10:03 PM	#10
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Tip of the scabbard Hi Henk, Thank you for the compliment. The tip is made of vegetable ivory as they call it. In fact it is tagua nut. A nut coming from a palm tree growing in South America. Extremely hard nuts, very similar to ivory hardness that can be cut and filed just as ivory. The nuts are not as large as ivory ! so the pieces you can cut and make with Tagua nuts are small (5 to 8 cm) I had it come from South America. Regards Michel

8th April 2008, 09:49 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Forget grinders and dremels and such like. The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper. Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder. Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder? It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

9th April 2008, 03:13 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type. You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone. The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat. You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them. The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge. The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

9th April 2008, 01:44 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

8th April 2008, 10:40 AM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hi Alan, Thank you for your kind words. Yes, sulfur and salt do not stain properly a blade, the mixture prepared as you explained, using only sulfur and rice water, seems to eat away the weaker metal in my case the iron. the nickel resisting better appears in surface and gives these topographical irregularities. I think the salt is only accelerating the process (it took 24 hours only). I have not utilized rice water, only plain water, and am just wondering why rice water. Nik Rashidin Nick Hussein, who gave me the recipe, told me "rice water" also. I think there is a chemist in the forum, may be he could explain. I have utilized the recipe on an old blade which was in my eyes completely pamorless with a decent result. I do not know how Henk (of the forum) saw that that blade was with pamor and encourage me to stain it. Hi Lemythesmith Thank you also for appreciating my efforts but I am a long way from the quality of your work. My peksi is 4.5 mm in diameter and the hulu is 12 mm diameter at its base. But I do not think that I would be able to adapt a mendak on the base of rought out coper base cup. I am no jeweler and lack that sort of experience and tools. Hi Ferrylaki, Thank you for your comments. To answer your questions : my ricikan were all done with files, as the greneng. I do not use a small grinder . As you say: it is too risky. A mistake is so easily done and often cannot be corrected. You are right, my handle is a bit too big for the size of the keris. And it is the second one. My initial one was even larger and I had to redo it homothetically smaller. I think that my reference, also a patrem, has also a too large handle. The answer to that is to do a third handle, smaller ! Thank you for suggesting to look in Jakarta for a smaller mendak. Mine is 6mm internal diameter and 15 mm external diameter and my hulu 12 mm. Now if I remake a correct sized handle, I will probably loose an other millimeter or two on the exterior diameter of the base of the hulu, so about 10 mm. Do you really think one can find such a small mendak ? If yes, it can be mailed in an envelop, if I cannot come and fetch it in Jakarta ! I will certainly make other krisses, but slowly ! An other day, I will show you my kris Panjang. An other size ! Thanks to all of you for your advices Michel

8th April 2008, 07:42 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michel, A very fine keris you made there. But i also like the scabbard you made. Can you tell me how you made the tip and what material did you use to make the tip?