Kopis/khopsh etc. - Egyptian swords

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

BTW.......isn't machaira a word for what in US would be called a knife, rather than a sword or dagger, in modern Greek?

In modern greek
machaira=big knife
machairi=knife
kopis={not used but is the etymological root of the following}
kopidi=chisel
kovo=chop down, cut out (verb)
kopsimo=cut
falcata={not used, maybe the root of the following}
faltseta=a curved folding knife (an older word, my father used)
faltsokovo=bevel

Originally Posted by ariel

Where does Falcatta fit here?

I have the idea (nothing official) that the difference between kopis and falchata is that falchata had a knuckleguard. Also I think that falchata was used in Italian and Iberian greek colonies than mainland and Ionia, but I cant find any reference. Maybe a Spanish or Italian friend here can check etymology or references.

Originally Posted by tom hyle

lots and lots of doubt that Alexander in particular or Macedonians in general should be considered Greek?

Fifty years ago there were no doubts at all. Now there are, mainly for political reasons, I can’t explain in this forum. But according to ancient sources Macedonians were speaking a greek dialect and they worship the same greek gods. If this is not enough, check their names: Phillip = “He loves horses” (a greek name), Alexander = “Men protector” (a greek name). Actually ancient Greeks like American Indians had names they were carrying a meaning.

Originally Posted by tom hyle

and to the north is the border between Slavia and Tartarstan

Slavia is a later name, Slavs arrived in Balkans in 6th century A.D.
What Tartastan has to do here???? It is thousand miles north east. Also Tartars is a very late population that never established in the area.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Andrew

First, let's everyone keep this discussion civil. Some posts have been close to the edge in my estimation.

Andrew, I think that I am in the lines. I really try to respect forum rules. If you think you must lock the topic, please, be sure that ALL offensive words will leave.

“You have the knife and you have the melon” says a greek proverb, meaning that you have the power to do what you like. I don’t question that. I just say that last time I had a bitter taste

[Kamil]

Hi,
if any of my words seemed crude, it was not my intention and I apologize for them.
Tom,
the spelling is not from the province of Egypt. First, it is not possible to discern dialects in ancient Egyptian language, apart from few words and the Coptic language which is relatively late (AD, not BC; and Copts did not use khepesh). The word khepesh is known from official inscriptions that were written in a literary style.
Concerning your earlier remark, I've never heard about stone-bladed khepesh. It seems rather impossible to me, as the Egyptians used copper and bronze tools since a long time when they learned khepesh; moreover, manufacturing of such relatively long, thin and curved blade of stone would be extremely difficult. Such stone blade does not seem to be useful in fight also... The Egyptians used stone knives, of course, but rather for ritual purposes (I mean in the dynastic period), eg. the flint knife used in the mummification process or purely symbolic, Y-shaped pesesh-kaf knife.

[tom hyle]

Slavia is a later name, Slavs arrived in Balkans in 6th century A.D.
What Tartastan has to do here???? It is thousand miles north east. Also Tartars is a very late population that never established in the area.[/QUOTE]

I am construing the term Tartar, as I always do, and have explained and justified exhaustively many times, much more broadly than that. Scythians (which I also tend to construe more widely than the kingdom of that name, much as with Sudan) were for instance a proto-Tartar related people (yeah, I get tired of writing the proto, OK?). Tartar is not a racial term. It is cultural and arguably linguistic (there is a Tartar or "Turkic" language group, but not speaking it doesn't make someone who has a lot of other Tartar traits a nonTartar, neccessarily). The Eurasian steppes, and arguably their frontiers, are Tartarstan. in my book, and in a lot of old maps and writings, too.
Thanks for the Greek words; they might be helpful.
Fifty years ago there were no doubts at all about a lot of things; some of them have even been PROVEN wrong. The older belief can as easily be political or otherwise wrong as the new one. The language is a meaningful point, but does not address other factors of Norhern/plains influence. Just as I was saying about Americans; they speak English, but they are not English, and much in their culture (largely unacknowledgedly) is American Indian......Everyone all around was worshipping the same gods, BTW, with minor variations, mostly in name. Actually, I find animism (which broadly construed includes both the structured ancient Mediterranean religions, and for instance, "Hinduism") to be pretty universal and startlingly homogenous in many ways. The idea that each animist culture has/had its own religion is not entirely valid; to me they all have/had the same religion. This is not even a very controversial idea when applied to IndoEuropeans; though spreading it worldwide typically raises eyebrows.
I don't think you're right about the knucklebow; I think the name falcatta is a regional/tribal thing, and the knucklebow an occasional (and very oddly not passed down; humans rarely let go of an invention that way.) variation, seen perhaps only on falcatta, but not always.

BTW, I was reading the forum guidelines, and I think they are unrealistic. It is impossible to have a meaningful or useful discussion of the evolution and travel of weapon forms without discussing the politics, philosophy, religion, etc. of the peoples involved; quite impossible; this whole thread could not exist if we tightly constued those guidelines. The important thing, I would say, is to try extra hard to not be offensive about these sensitive matters.....I try, perhaps not always successfully to be unemotionally historical/logical about these things, but it often seems that is not enough to prevent offense.

[tom hyle]

Stone edged swords are typically made of wood, antler, etc. Thus with the one in my shady memory (the main problem is that it is a memory of a drawing, with possibly multiple interpretations). They are a widespread artifact of the past.
I'm not sure, Kamil, what you're trying to say; I don't think I'm following you. You tell me the spellings are from Egypt, then that they're not, then that they are? Perhaps you are objecting to me calling Egypt a province? Or perhaps you didn't understand that that's what I was doing? Province, country; I wasn't being technical enough, I suppose, but I didn't want to raise the idea of nationalisma again. Provincialism per se is only nationalism writ small though.....and it is exactly the attitude that breeds the ignorance whereby one small area can claim to have the "correct spelling" (for instance) of a widespread word that is spelled variously in various regions, an idea which, quite understandably, can be offensive and disrespectful to the people of those regions, as well as being factually/logically false. (because what makes one tribe's spelling more correct than anothers? Usually the determining factor is which tribe the speaker comes from or has made a special study of....)

[Kamil]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I'm not sure, Kamil, what you're trying to say; I don't think I'm following you. You tell me the spellings are from Egypt, then that they're not, then that they are? Perhaps you are objecting to me calling Egypt a province? Or perhaps you didn't understand that that's what I was doing? Province, country;

Tom,
this time I'm not following you... I tried to say that the word khepesh is Egyptian one and that only the spelling "khepesh" is correct - not "khopsh" etc.
Perhaps I haven't understood you properly. In terms of Egyptology "provincial" means "relating to/coming from province, ie. area situated far away from the capital city". In this sense the word cannot be named "provincial". BTW Nationalism has nothing to do here, I suppose. I'm not Egyptian so your remarks are not offensive for me. However I'm Egyptologist and my point of view is Egyptological one.

[tom hyle]

[QUOTE=tom hyle: Usually the determining factor is which tribe the speaker comes from or has made a special study of....)[/QUOTE]


I think I explained my misuse of "provincialism" quite thoroughly, though I left out that in the N American English language it has slightly different connotations than nationalism, other than just the size of the defining body (nation/province), and people seem so prickly around here concerning the word nationalism....

To say a spelling is nationalistic implies that it is defended out of pride in nation. To say it is provincial carries more of the idea that its sense of sole validity is based on ignorance of matters in far places; the assumption that whatever is around you is "it".......all there is; all that matters; all that's proper.....This is at the heart of "proper spelling" "proper dress" "decent haircut" and other such concepts. Further, it is not exclusively used in a political/geogrphic literal sense, but can refer to conceptual provinces, such as sociology, Egyptology, etc.
I'm not sure why you keep talking about Arabic as if you were contradicting me? All I said about Arabic is it is Afrasian and I don't know if it has vowels. All I said about Hebrew is it is Afrasian and doesn't have vowels (though I think there may now be a new version that does have; how accepted/widespread it is I don't know.

[tom hyle]

One little thing I'm not sure everyone gets; I think it's relevant not to the topic of swords but to the topic of how to talk to each other; of course, someone is holding the knife and the melon (great expression; very clear) so I guess that person will decide relevance for the rest of you: the things I say about tribalism and elitism that some people find so offensive and odd are, if you check back, mostly in response to statements assuming the "normal" human attitudes on these matters (that they are either fine and dandy or not really occuring); those attitudes are at least as equally offensive to me; they are the ones under which I have been crushed all my life.

[Andrew]

Quite a frolic and detour this thread has taken. If anyone still cares to discuss Kopis/khopsh etc., please start a new thread.

Tom, you have a PM.

Thread locked.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

BTW, I was reading the forum guidelines, and I think they are unrealistic. It is impossible to have a meaningful or useful discussion of the evolution and travel of weapon forms without discussing the politics, philosophy, religion, etc. of the peoples involved; quite impossible; this whole thread could not exist if we tightly constued those guidelines.

It really isn't that hard.

The important thing, I would say, is to try extra hard to not be offensive about these sensitive matters.....I try, perhaps not always successfully to be unemotionally historical/logical about these things, but it often seems that is not enough to prevent offense.

Precisely. Thanks.