Native North African sword

CharlesS · 6th March 2008, 02:05 PM

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

Bill M · 6th March 2008, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

VANDOO · 6th March 2008, 05:05 PM

BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD

WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN

NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

kronckew · 6th March 2008, 05:25 PM

a true user.

in a real battle with possibly multiple opponents, there is not much need to have more than the first part of the blade sharpened, and there are stories of the japanese in times of battle (rather than peacetime duels) deliberately dulling the rearward portion of their blades as the dull edge was less likely to nick in a manner that might cause the blade to then break under the extreme stress of battle against further armoured opponents. the razor sharpness of the peacetime sword which was likely to be used only against unarmoured single opponets in quickly ended duels was a bit of a liability in a real battle.

ariel · 6th March 2008, 06:32 PM

I think we have a hybrid here.
Originally, it was a Kattara, as evidenced by the blade and the typical outline of the handle.
However, the scabbard, with its parallel leather strips , looks very Manding. Especially the "drag" portion of it ( the best preserved one) is very, very, very Manding! And, of course, the handle: the Omani solid and heavy counterweight pommel was lost (discarded?) and a flimsy cap was put in its place. The top was also sharpened sometimes on route from Oman to West Africa.
Well traveled sword...
With the current fascination by canine designer breeds, such as Cockapoo, Labrapoo, Chihuastiffe , a mix of Chihuahua and Neapolitan Mastiffe (not yet developed, but certainly coming soon to the "PetWorld" near you) we may start paying more attention to the transitional forms of weapons. Most likely, they will tell us something important about ancient migrations and clashes of civilizations.

kai · 6th March 2008, 08:38 PM

At first glance I also was entertaining the thought this might be a kattara.

Like Ariel and Jim, I believe this to be an African sword though (especially the fittings are far from Arab style). IMHO, the blade could as well originate from Africa. Thus, only the hilt may be suggesting an Omani origin but I'm not convinced of that either: The pommel cap doesn't look like a make-shift replacement and could as well be original? Jim, are there any similarly tapering hilts known from Africa?

Regards,
Kai

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

At first glance I also was entertaining the thought this might be a kattara.

Like Ariel and Jim, I believe this to be an African sword though (especially the fittings are far from Arab style). IMHO, the blade could as well originate from Africa. Thus, only the hilt may be suggesting an Omani origin but I'm not convinced of that either: The pommel cap doesn't look like a make-shift replacement and could as well be original? Jim, are there any similarly tapering hilts known from Africa?

Regards,
Kai

Kai, there are of course many variations in the wide diffusion of weapons in North Africa, and cylindrical hilts are known in the Maasai seme, as well as the Manding sabre. The Manding sabres of Mali seem to have hilts that recall Omani style, and as Ariel has suggested, the wrap suggests Manding. The reptilian skin however is most probably from the waran lizard, suggesting Sudanese provenance.
In rechecking the Sierra Leone swords that often carry kaskara type broadsword blades, thier hilts are with a symmetrical 'dumbbell' type pommel and guard, so would not correspond with the hilt seen here.

My impression remains most likely Eastern Sudan, with possibly Bedouin association. The Omani kattara with broadsword blade certainly travelled inland with trade routes, and there are Omani hilted sabres as well.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 6th March 2008, 09:02 PM

Hi Bill,
the type of weapon I like..... a 'non-fussy' user

, totally agree with Ariel a kattara that has travelled, I am sure it has great stories 'to tell'. An added advantage of only the final 8" or so, being sharpened is that that the sword could have been used 'two handed' by gripping the forte area. Seeing as there is no guard, the risk factor to the other 'sword hand' would be no different. In a melee ... being able to manipulate the sword with two hands can be an advantage in a number of situations, medievel knights would sometimes hold the blade (two handed) and strike with the cross guard ...a la improvised war hammer.

Is the blade relatively thin and flexible as alot of kattara seem to have?

Regards David

Bill M · 7th March 2008, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Bill,

Is the blade relatively thin and flexible as a lot of kattara seem to have?

Regards David

Hi David,

No it is much like a kaskara. Solid. But I don't know how flexible a kattara blade would be since I don't have one

(yet).

But I am looking.

Maybe my mummy will get me one for Christmas!

I do have several kaskara and it is very much like one of them.

Bill

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2008, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD

WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN

NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

LOL!!!

Vandoo you are amazing! Out of nowhere you drag out Boris Karloff in "The Mummys Curse" ! What an incredible command of classic movies. I was thinking about a mummy sword too. Thanks I needed the chuckles.

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 6th March 2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

My thoughts on coverings of these African swords is that the steel would get extremely hot under the African sun, I don't think I could wield comfortably a sword that has been sitting in 40 degree plus heat all day, chances are that your hands would first reach for the steel pommel before being drawn and if it had a guard fingers would get burnt there too upon gripping the blade....

regards

Gav

Chris Evans · 7th March 2008, 05:04 AM

Hi Gavin,

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

My thoughts on coverings of these African swords is that the steel would get extremely hot under the African sun, I don't think I could wield comfortably a sword that has been sitting in 40 degree plus heat all day, chances are that your hands would first reach for the steel pommel before being drawn and if it had a guard fingers would get burnt there too upon gripping the blade....

regards

Gav

A rather astute observation, if I may say so - I often wondered about this, especially the arms and armour worn during the crusades - Helmets and armour must have got dangerously hot, even in European summers, let alone the ME summers. Maybe they wore gloves or gauntlets, and perhaps shielded it from the sun with some cloth.

Cheers
Chris
PS What happened to your king sized navaja?

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2008, 07:41 PM

"...or art thou a dagger of the mind, a false creation
proceeding from heat oppressed brain?"
MacBeth II, i.33
The effects of heat on weapons and armour is very much a reality.

I agree with Chris, Gav's observation is very well placed. I do know that many edged weapons had steel hilts covered with leather for this, as one reason. In the 19th century, many of the steel hilts on the sabres worn by horsemen in the heat of the Mexican deserts were covered with sewn leather covers. This is also true of British 'colonial' swords, in desert regions of India such as the Punjab and Sind, the steel hilts also had leather covers. I once had a British WWI pattern 1908 cavalry sword with a huge steel bowl hilt. This was one used by General Allenby's cavalry in the campaigns in the Middle East, and the hilt was covered in sewn leather.
It is also suggested that the purpose of these leather covered hilts was to prevent accidental glints or reflection from the sun revealing positions of cavalry, however that seems unlikely as the clatter of horse trappings and thunder of hooves in mass, the dust stirred not withstanding, would be more likely to reveal such presence.

As to armour in the Crusades and Middle East, in fact to ancient times, the effects of heat on the wearer is a very real, however not often discussed, reality.

"...the heat of summer made the armour insupportable and exposed the wearer to the dangers of suffocation and apoplexy, or produced at least, such debility as to disable him from wielding his weapons".
"The History of Chivalry and Armour"
Dr. F.Kottenkamp, 1850

"...the real problem with armour was not its weight but the way it trapped heat. Body heat resulting from battle exertion could prove fatal. At the Battle of Agincourt (1415) the Duke of York seems to have died of a heart attack brought on by 'the heat of battle'.
"Brasseys Book of Body Armour"
Robert Wasasnam-Savage,2000, p.70

"...it is one of the mysteries in the history of armour, how the crusaders can have fought under the scorching sun of the East in thick quilted garments covered with excessively heavy chain mail".
-Brittanica, p.392

None of these resources reveals any particular means of resolving the obviously well established problem of heat and its effect on the armoured individual, but these references do acknowledge awareness of it.

As for the sword, the covering of the hilt in leather does seem to be intended to reduce the obvious effects of hot steel in these cases.However with the leather covered hilts of the takouba swords of the Tuareg, the purpose is basically apotropaic, as it is a taboo for them to touch iron.

A very interesting perspective, and well represented by this 'mummified' sword

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 7th March 2008, 08:23 PM

This looks like West African as mentioned before. The markings on what is left of the leather is a dead give alway as is the sack cloth bulk of the scabbard and handle. You can find cardboard, scrap silk and other materials for this purpuse. As for the the blade travalling all the way from Zanibar, is a little romantic when one considers the trade in west Africa, the trade coast. Especially as we do appear to be looking at a trade blade. Where this blade originated is a little more tricky to be sure of. Britain, Denmark, Holland, France,Germany, Spain? all had a finger in the pie. That sounds quite unpleasant.

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This looks like West African as mentioned before. The markings on what is left of the leather is a dead give alway as is the sack cloth bulk of the scabbard and handle. You can find cardboard, scrap silk and other materials for this purpuse. As for the the blade travalling all the way from Zanibar, is a little romantic when one considers the trade in west Africa, the trade coast. Especially as we do appear to be looking at a trade blade. Where this blade originated is a little more tricky to be sure of. Britain, Denmark, Holland, France,Germany, Spain? all had a finger in the pie. That sounds quite unpleasant.

Hi Tim,
In looking at the scabbard cap and reviewing certain items that were Manding, it does seem that the segmented leather in rounded and raised bands do correspond. The parallel bands on the scabbard in review also do seem to suggest Manding as Ariel has noted.The degraded remains of what appears an 'X' geometric does appear on the chape also. I think this strengthens the case for West African, though I am still a bit puzzled by the reptilian skin, a Nilotic tendancy. I suppose we need to consider the possibility of use of another reptile skin, perhaps snake? and whether West African weapons used such coverings.

I didnt mean to suggest that the blade came from Zanzibar, actually I was referring to the Omani weapon influence. It is true that West Africa had profound trade, just as did East Africa in Red Sea ports and Zanzibar. The slave trade in Sudan and trade routes through the interior that had some degree of origin in Zanzibar did intersect in regions that also experienced major routes headed westward.
I think the West African trade was more maritime and European influenced than from the East African Omani Sultanate in Zanzibar, which is why I feel the Omani weapon influence travelled, in relay sense by confluence of trade routes, tribal interface, and nomadic contact in desert regions. This same dynamic, from west to east, is where I discussed in 2003, the movement of the Moroccan s'boula through Ethiopian regions and to Zanzibar.
The trade blades that early were found with these triple fullers were usually German, and from Solingen, however this blade appears native made, in the type found in the Sudanese kaskara. The origin of this blade may well be from many regions from Sudan to Sahara, and as I have noted, has nothing to do with Zanzibar.

As I also noted, there are swords of a type that use kaskara type blades in Sierra Leone, and have guardless hilt, but are different than this in that they are more rondel type (as in the Nepalese kora, but obviously I am not suggesting a link, simply noting the similarity).
I do agree that you and Ariel present a very good case for western regions of Africa, probably Saharan for this sword.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 7th March 2008, 09:38 PM

It could be a native blade. Or perhaps native finished. I would not like to suggest that native smiths were lacking. However it does appear to me that it is steel that has been through the mill so to speak, I could well be wrong. It is also more than possible that trade went east west as much as west east. Zanzibar is a long way away from Mali and the "Manding".

6th March 2008, 09:02 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Bill, the type of weapon I like..... a 'non-fussy' user , totally agree with Ariel a kattara that has travelled, I am sure it has great stories 'to tell'. An added advantage of only the final 8" or so, being sharpened is that that the sword could have been used 'two handed' by gripping the forte area. Seeing as there is no guard, the risk factor to the other 'sword hand' would be no different. In a melee ... being able to manipulate the sword with two hands can be an advantage in a number of situations, medievel knights would sometimes hold the blade (two handed) and strike with the cross guard ...a la improvised war hammer. Is the blade relatively thin and flexible as alot of kattara seem to have? Regards David Last edited by katana; 7th March 2008 at 01:18 AM.

7th March 2008, 09:38 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	It could be a native blade. Or perhaps native finished. I would not like to suggest that native smiths were lacking. However it does appear to me that it is steel that has been through the mill so to speak, I could well be wrong. It is also more than possible that trade went east west as much as west east. Zanzibar is a long way away from Mali and the "Manding". Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th March 2008 at 09:51 PM.

6th March 2008, 02:05 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre". I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why. NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

6th March 2008, 05:05 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

6th March 2008, 05:25 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	a true user. in a real battle with possibly multiple opponents, there is not much need to have more than the first part of the blade sharpened, and there are stories of the japanese in times of battle (rather than peacetime duels) deliberately dulling the rearward portion of their blades as the dull edge was less likely to nick in a manner that might cause the blade to then break under the extreme stress of battle against further armoured opponents. the razor sharpness of the peacetime sword which was likely to be used only against unarmoured single opponets in quickly ended duels was a bit of a liability in a real battle.

6th March 2008, 06:32 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we have a hybrid here. Originally, it was a Kattara, as evidenced by the blade and the typical outline of the handle. However, the scabbard, with its parallel leather strips , looks very Manding. Especially the "drag" portion of it ( the best preserved one) is very, very, very Manding! And, of course, the handle: the Omani solid and heavy counterweight pommel was lost (discarded?) and a flimsy cap was put in its place. The top was also sharpened sometimes on route from Oman to West Africa. Well traveled sword... With the current fascination by canine designer breeds, such as Cockapoo, Labrapoo, Chihuastiffe , a mix of Chihuahua and Neapolitan Mastiffe (not yet developed, but certainly coming soon to the "PetWorld" near you) we may start paying more attention to the transitional forms of weapons. Most likely, they will tell us something important about ancient migrations and clashes of civilizations.

6th March 2008, 08:38 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	At first glance I also was entertaining the thought this might be a kattara. Like Ariel and Jim, I believe this to be an African sword though (especially the fittings are far from Arab style). IMHO, the blade could as well originate from Africa. Thus, only the hilt may be suggesting an Omani origin but I'm not convinced of that either: The pommel cap doesn't look like a make-shift replacement and could as well be original? Jim, are there any similarly tapering hilts known from Africa? Regards, Kai

7th March 2008, 07:41 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	"...or art thou a dagger of the mind, a false creation proceeding from heat oppressed brain?" MacBeth II, i.33 The effects of heat on weapons and armour is very much a reality. I agree with Chris, Gav's observation is very well placed. I do know that many edged weapons had steel hilts covered with leather for this, as one reason. In the 19th century, many of the steel hilts on the sabres worn by horsemen in the heat of the Mexican deserts were covered with sewn leather covers. This is also true of British 'colonial' swords, in desert regions of India such as the Punjab and Sind, the steel hilts also had leather covers. I once had a British WWI pattern 1908 cavalry sword with a huge steel bowl hilt. This was one used by General Allenby's cavalry in the campaigns in the Middle East, and the hilt was covered in sewn leather. It is also suggested that the purpose of these leather covered hilts was to prevent accidental glints or reflection from the sun revealing positions of cavalry, however that seems unlikely as the clatter of horse trappings and thunder of hooves in mass, the dust stirred not withstanding, would be more likely to reveal such presence. As to armour in the Crusades and Middle East, in fact to ancient times, the effects of heat on the wearer is a very real, however not often discussed, reality. "...the heat of summer made the armour insupportable and exposed the wearer to the dangers of suffocation and apoplexy, or produced at least, such debility as to disable him from wielding his weapons". "The History of Chivalry and Armour" Dr. F.Kottenkamp, 1850 "...the real problem with armour was not its weight but the way it trapped heat. Body heat resulting from battle exertion could prove fatal. At the Battle of Agincourt (1415) the Duke of York seems to have died of a heart attack brought on by 'the heat of battle'. "Brasseys Book of Body Armour" Robert Wasasnam-Savage,2000, p.70 "...it is one of the mysteries in the history of armour, how the crusaders can have fought under the scorching sun of the East in thick quilted garments covered with excessively heavy chain mail". -Brittanica, p.392 None of these resources reveals any particular means of resolving the obviously well established problem of heat and its effect on the armoured individual, but these references do acknowledge awareness of it. As for the sword, the covering of the hilt in leather does seem to be intended to reduce the obvious effects of hot steel in these cases.However with the leather covered hilts of the takouba swords of the Tuareg, the purpose is basically apotropaic, as it is a taboo for them to touch iron. A very interesting perspective, and well represented by this 'mummified' sword All best regards, Jim

7th March 2008, 08:23 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This looks like West African as mentioned before. The markings on what is left of the leather is a dead give alway as is the sack cloth bulk of the scabbard and handle. You can find cardboard, scrap silk and other materials for this purpuse. As for the the blade travalling all the way from Zanibar, is a little romantic when one considers the trade in west Africa, the trade coast. Especially as we do appear to be looking at a trade blade. Where this blade originated is a little more tricky to be sure of. Britain, Denmark, Holland, France,Germany, Spain? all had a finger in the pie. That sounds quite unpleasant.