Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

[Paul Macdonald]

Hi Pukka,

I`m happy to answer your questions.

Regarding the discovery of the sword, this came about after I received a commission to restore the original basket hilted backsword of Charles Stuart of Ardshiel, the Jacobite commander of the Stuarts of Appin at Sherrifmuir and Culloden.
This sword has been passed down in the same family for generations, and it`s continued provenance was that this was the sword used by Ardshiel to face and defeat Rob Roy MacGregor in single combat.

It was on the back of receiving this sword that I chased a local legend from my original Highland homeland of Moidart. I was years before told of the story that a local family possessed the (or an) original sword of Rob Roy MacGregor. The provenace is like most Highland traditions and oral in nature, handed down from generation to generation. That is, MacGregor in his last days gave the sword to one of the MacLarens, from whom MacGregor rented his croft.
It was then passed from that family to the MacRaes of Moidart a couple of generations ago.

I have found but one contemporary description of MacGregors sword, which was described as a `broad and stout blade`. That which I received from the MacRaes is certainly that. It is noticeably broad, and overall on the heftier end, but well balanced all the same.

The sword has been in the hands of a private family and was treasured by the father, who passed away around 10 years ago. Since that time, many of his possessions, including the sword, were put into a byre beside the crofthouse, and no doubt much of the corrosive damage has been caused during this time. As far as the mother was concerned, it was just an old sword.
Unfortunately, the elements corroded away the original leather scabbard and basket lining, and likely also some of the grip material, as well as causing surface rust over the entire blade and hilt.

I visited Abbotsford house to see the Rob Roy sword there and other weapons that were purchased by Sir Walter Scott in the C19th. To be sure, the blade on Scott`s MacGregor sword does not match the contemporary description, and his `Rob Roy sgian dubh` is clearly early - mid C19th.

Check out the following threads for further pics and info. regarding the swords of Ardshiel and MacGregor -

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=80549

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=82635

Regarding basket linings, there is plenty of evidence of original Jacobite baskets being either fully or partly (base of hilt only) lined in leather. This provides a rudimentary protection for the knuckles and thumb against the hilt. This is not so much because the hilts are restrictive. If the hilt does not allow full and free movement to hand and wrist, then it is best melted down to make something that is serviceable!

The basket hilted sword is primarily a cutting weapon, and cuts require sufficient blade movement to be effective. Full and free hand and wrist movement is essential for this and any good basket is of size and form enough to allow it.

Both grips were used on the Highland hilts, either with the fingers and thumb curled around the entire grip, or with the thumb running along the back of the grip, fingers slightly back to allow a fingers and thumb only grip. This may not sound as stong, but in the hands of a trained swordsman is just as strong and more accurate and responsive than a wrap-around grip.
Hilts allowing the thumb-back grip tend to be slightly longer in the hilt and grip and sometimes with a flat back to the grip.

The leather lining protection is more to protect the hand if any bars break or bend in towards the hand during use.

This was fairly common with Highland baskets, as the individual bars and plates have to be quite thin, otherwise, the whole hilt would simply weigh too much. This is easily evident with many mass produced basket hilts today, that may look the part but are far from serviceable, with too-thick baskets and muckle thick blades.

I have also handled and seen many original early - mid C18th military basket hilts with full leather lining, usually white on the inside and red on the outside. This is as much for show and matching the weapon with the redcoat uniform as it is for practical use.

The red lining became almost a standard feature of regimental basket hilt swords since that time, and is seen on most C19th Scottish military baskets, which are still made and used as the current pattern.

I hope that the above details are helpful for now

All the best,

Macdonald

[Jeff D]

Thanks Jim for starting this thread, and what a treat to have the expertise of Paul Macdonald here!
Here a a few examples of Baskethilts in my collection.

This is a Stirling hilt that I have posted here before.

[Jeff D]

This is a S-hilt. I would love to here what the most current theory on the significance of the S. (Stirling?, Stuart? simple protection?).

[Jeff D]

Here is a English basket. Also called "Irish hilt" or "Twysden style". Although classically these are English I believe they were also made above the border.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for coming in on this Richard! Excellent questions as well.
It does seem amazing that this sword attributed to such a historic figure could be in such a state, and I think Paul's explanation covers it quite well. The hiding away of weapons, regardless of importance, has always been quite common, indeed after the proscription of Scottish weaponry following the '45, vast numbers of weapons according to stories told, ended up in thatched roofs and all manner of hideaways.

I recall years ago seeing illustrations of the sword attributed to Rob Roy that Paul mentions from Sir Walter Scott's Abbotsford, and for some reason feeling that as Paul noted, it may well be 'a' sword used at one time by Rob Roy, but certainly not exclusively. It is often amazing, the almost theatrical tales that are applied to weapons presented to collectors, and romantization is quite frankly what made Sir Walter Scott the magnificent writer he was!

In one item I found written in "Scotland Illustrated" by William Beattie (1847), the author notes that the duel between Charles Stuart of Ardshiel and Rob Roy, MacGregor was angered when a cut by Ardshiel drew blood, and having reached satisfaction , he supposedly threw his broadsword into Lochvail nearly opposite Stronvaar House. The author speculated that it was still there.

Interestingly this is but one version of the tale, in this case claiming that the cut became infected and MacGregor died later from it. In other versions of the tale, it is said MacGregor died quietly in his home at a goodly age, not by sword or bullet.

It stands to reason that the sword we are discussing here most certainly was at least one of the weapons used by Rob Roy, and corresponds well to the contemporary descriptions as well noted by Paul. It seems doubtful that Rob Roy would throw a beloved basket hilt into a lake, regardless of how angered he might have been. I am just glad that it was given over to Paul before it suffered more damage, and that it is now preserved.

Paul, thank you for addressing the liners of these as well, a topic that is seldom ever mentioned especially in such detail.

Jeff, you're here!!! You know I've been waiting for those beauties of yours
I'd like to know more on these 'S' hilts as well.

The 'twysden' attribution came from Mazansky didn't it?

Gentlemen, thank you all very much for bringing so much into this thread!

All very best regards,
Jim

[Paul Macdonald]

Jeff,

Those are some beautiful swords!

The first looks like it will dance in the hand nicely

Jim, thanks for that reference to MacGregor throwing his sword in Loch Voil. I had wondered where this had come from, as there is a reference in the family history to it.
If you could send me any info. or copies of this, it would be very much appreciated, as I have had to piece together the real legend from many other stories.

Sir Walter Scott is largely to blame for the popular myth, that MacGregors last duel was with Alistair (sometimes given as Alexander, as the Gaelic for this name sounds more like Alistair) Stuart of Invernahyle. The Ardshiel family were quite adamant that this was not true and it took some digging to discover that this was the case.

Scott attributed this man to the duel, as he was first invited up to visit the Highlands at the request of Alistair Stuart of Invernahyle. This first visit inspired him to write the book Rob Roy, and he was no doubt fed many stories of the man`s legend at the time. The book he wrote some years later, and in the original introduction, he states that he attributed Invernahyle as MacGregors antagonist for his last duel but that "it was so many years ago he heard these tales that he may be mistaken", thus casting doubt upon his own accuracy.

Over the years, many authors of books on MacGregor have simply taken this story as fact, and also attributed Invernahyle as MacGregors last opponent.

The real story however, can be found in the nearest contemporary Gaelic account, translated from the original Dewar Manuscripts. These were commissioned by the Duke of Argyll in the mid C19th. The man who wrote them was John Dewar, a local worker under Argyll`s pay. He was a native Gaelic speaker and familiar with many local tales of the period, and it was his task to collect as much local historical fact and tale as possible to preserve them for future generations.

In here is the entire story of MacGregor and Ardshiels duel, from the cause to the challenge to subsequent retributions taken afterwards. There is no mention of Invernahyle here.

What is interesting to note is several similarities in both tales of MacGregor and Invernahyle that follow through. Both mention that the duel took place in Balqhuidder, the Dewar account clearly taking place behind the local inn. MacGregor was facing a man nearly half his age. He is bested by a cut under the chin (this is the one serious enough to end the combat). He says to his opponent "Well done, that this is the first time my sword has failed me, and the first time I have been bested in single combat".

In both cases also, with the exception of the Loch Voil reference, upon being cut, he sticks his sword into the ground before complimenting his opponent.

There were two inns by Balqhuidder at this time, one actually in the village, and one on the edge of it. This is the one I suspect was the site for the duel, as it is originally an older building, dating back to the C16th. Neither of these buildings are anywhere near sword-chucking distance to Loch Voil. The sword in the ground story appears first in the Dewar manuscripts and pops up in later versions also. And like you say Jim, he was a measured man, a swordsman, who is not likely to just throw away good steel.

I hope this helps shed a wee bit more light of legend upon these twa swords.





Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I think the one thing that comes across from my two previous posts is that German blades were being imported commercially and/or brought in personally from the earliest phases of the style that is recognizable as Scottish. This would seem to reinforce the idea that the basket as a concept may indeed have its origins in Germany and that the idea was brought to Scotland by returning mercenaries and general commercial trading enterprise.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Paul,
I found the Loch Voil reference in a google reference while trying to locate data on Rob Roys actual sword. I will try to renavigate and get more detail to you (there was monumental volume of more popular and modern aspects of Scottish material which though intriguing typically defies the more applicable historic data ). It seems most of the varying makers of the reproduction items apply a wide range of historical versions of many of the legendary tales).

I am unfortunately nearing the age where many of my stories of years ago weave into a bit of blur in recalling events that most probably have been embellished in my own mind Combining this well established 'grandfather malady' ( I have 5 grandkids!) in stories being recounted to an imaginative and most creative romantic writer such as Sir Walter Scott, would certainly lend well to magnificent tales, but do little for actual history!
This sort of situation in well established here in the U.S. in the 'wild west' (where I have been travelling the past 6 months) in the hugely distorted stories of the gunfighters particularly. Much of this legend was created by the sensationalizing of writers....wonderful stories...but rather shallow in the true history in most cases. Despite this, in most cases, the figures themselves were outstanding in thier own right, often without the embellished stories.

Norman, very well done ! Thank you for adding the captioned detail so we can see the variations in these great examples noted. It does seem that the Scots returning from campaigns in regions from Northern Europe to Eastern Europe certainly would have brought back weapons such as the basket hilt dusagge, especially if , as earlier noted in my Sinclair post, they were often supplied with weapons by the principles who retained them. I just came across an example of 17th c. dusagge from Germany with the large panel in the hilt that carried pierced heart shapes, much as this shape appears in many basket hilt saltire plates. Since Germany was the predominant source for the blades on Scottish swords, we may presume that this established relationship resulted from the equally predominant association militarily with Germany.

All best regards,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

BTW Tim which school ?

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,

I thank you for your reply, and was not intending in any way to appear to be "squashing" what you had to say.
This whole subject is so very interesting, and by nature bound to have much folklore and variations in it. This is what makes it so interesting!....trying to sort out truth from fiction.
If it was all plain and straight-forward it would not be half so compelling.
(After all, when did we last enjoy searching when we knew the answers already?!)

There have been some beutiful swords shown on this thread! thanks for sharing!!
I have no Scottish basket hilted swords. (Only a home-made dirk) I Nearly bought one years ago in York, but the guard was "gai sair" on the knuckles!

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

This is a S-hilt. I would love to here what the most current theory on the significance of the S. (Stirling?, Stuart? simple protection?).

Hi Jeff,
Trying to discover more on the 'S' element in hilt construction, and in checking Whitelaw, Plate III, #2 is remarkably similar to your hilt on this one. It is captioned that this sword was signed by John Allan Sr. who worked in Doune, c.1714.(p.283). This is of course a Stirling hilt.

It is interesting that these S shaped elements appear to mirror each other, with the opposite one being of course reversed. It would seem that if this was intended to be a symbolic letter, it would have been correctly positioned on either side. Interestly in another source, I found a Glasgow hilt also using the S elements. The earlier ribbon hilt forms also carried these S shapes though in the much heavier strips.

In "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970, #24) the author notes regarding the S, "...people have considered this to have a Jacobite connection (i.e. S for Stuart). Alternatively it is S for Stirling. Both theories are unlikely however".

This is yet another of the mysteries of these swords, which includes the pierced shapes in the saltire plates, the concentric circles, zig zags and other designs and motif on the hilts. While it would seem that the sources I have noted seem to suggest these 'S's are simply structural connecting elements, it would be interesting to hear of other notes or comments on them.

Really is a beauty Jeff!!!

All the best,
Jim