Spanish colonial sword

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2008, 11:54 PM

WOW! Fernando

Indeed this does appear Spanish colonial, and seems to be an interesting hybrid of the bilbo type guard system, as well as reflecting the influence of European smallswords. The scalloped type edge of the shellguard is further evidence of the colonial possibilities, as well as the shape on the terminals and elements on the guard.
The blade looks to be one of the heavy military type broadsword blades that are now thought to have been actually Solingen made c.1770's and typically have the 'Spanish motto' in the triple fullers.
The large initials appear to be of either an owner or possibly a unit? In any case they would not be makers initials as far as I know.

The only associations with espada ancha would be that during this period, many of them carried these type blades, often reduced in length. The scalloped shell theme also occurred on some espada ancha in a flat extension of the guard that was like a large langet parallel to the blade.

Very nice! and its interesting to see a 'smallsword' type example that seems to be contemporary with many of the 'bilbo' swords, probably end of the 18th to early 19th century, and probably for an officer.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 10th February 2008, 09:02 PM

Thank you Jim,
Your'e allways there, my friend

Meanwhile i have improved the pictures ... have i ?

... Just in case other European swords conoisseurs come in

I wonder where Marc is

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2008, 03:45 AM

You always come up with great pieces Fernando! and I too look forward to hearing from Marc on this one. The pictures really are much better, and in one it seems the BB, the first B has a S. in it.
All the best,
Jim

Marc · 11th February 2008, 03:51 PM

Marc would like to be able to say something about the marks, but he can't

It's a small brass inset what I seem to see in the mark closer to the hilt in the reverse of the double "B" (fifth picture, DSC00010.JPG)? It may be an optical effect...
I'm still looking around for it, but as a first approximation it's indeed Spanish/Spanish Colonial. It's not the first one I see, with some minor variations. Blade seems to be "import", probably German. It's a military sword, Cavalry/Dragoons, second half of the 18th c., and a nice piece to boot, my sincere congratulations

fernando · 12th February 2008, 12:22 AM

Thanks a lot for your input and for praising this piece, Marc

.
No, there is no brass in the apparently unreadable marks, only some dust in the dot.
BTW, how would you tipify this sword, in terms of its guard ... be it in English or Spanish, in a way that i can bring it to Portuguese. It is not cup ( taza ), neither shell ( concha). Jim called it a bilbo hybrid type guard. Bilbo derives from Bilbao; is this how you call it in Spain ?. I am not certain it has an equivalence in portuguese. I already knew this name, but i browse the net and i don't see any examples.The thing is i don't know how to classify it for my files. The seller called it tigela ( bowl ) guard, but i don't think he is correct.
Or should i just call it by its class; a cavalry dragoon sword, basicaly of colonial issue?
Sorry to be such a bore
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2008, 03:44 AM

Fernando, if I were trying to classify this it would be as a dragoon officers shellguard dress sword with bilbo style quillons and of latter 18th century, probably Spanish colonial. The true Bilbo does have a bowl type guard, and it does seem that there may be some association with Bilbao as far as the derivation of the term. While a bit lengthy in words, it is better to be more descriptive when an atypical form is the subject.
Marc, its great to hear from you on this, and I agree it really is a nice example. I was hoping you might something similar among the regulation Spanish swords, but for the most part this seems like a cavalry officers sword that reflects the smallswords of the gentry, much like the British M1796 Heavy Cavalry officers dress sword.

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 12th February 2008, 04:37 AM

What is the significance of the brass on the Ricasso and quillons? To my eyes they look to be added later than the swords original manufacture. Could there in fact be other marks under the brass that covers the ricasso?

Gav

12th February 2008, 04:37 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The Brass on this sword. What is the significance of the brass on the Ricasso and quillons? To my eyes they look to be added later than the swords original manufacture. Could there in fact be other marks under the brass that covers the ricasso? Gav

9th February 2008, 11:54 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,476	WOW! Fernando Indeed this does appear Spanish colonial, and seems to be an interesting hybrid of the bilbo type guard system, as well as reflecting the influence of European smallswords. The scalloped type edge of the shellguard is further evidence of the colonial possibilities, as well as the shape on the terminals and elements on the guard. The blade looks to be one of the heavy military type broadsword blades that are now thought to have been actually Solingen made c.1770's and typically have the 'Spanish motto' in the triple fullers. The large initials appear to be of either an owner or possibly a unit? In any case they would not be makers initials as far as I know. The only associations with espada ancha would be that during this period, many of them carried these type blades, often reduced in length. The scalloped shell theme also occurred on some espada ancha in a flat extension of the guard that was like a large langet parallel to the blade. Very nice! and its interesting to see a 'smallsword' type example that seems to be contemporary with many of the 'bilbo' swords, probably end of the 18th to early 19th century, and probably for an officer. All best regards, Jim

10th February 2008, 09:02 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jim, Your'e allways there, my friend Meanwhile i have improved the pictures ... have i ? ... Just in case other European swords conoisseurs come in I wonder where Marc is Fernando

11th February 2008, 03:45 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,476	You always come up with great pieces Fernando! and I too look forward to hearing from Marc on this one. The pictures really are much better, and in one it seems the BB, the first B has a S. in it. All the best, Jim

11th February 2008, 03:51 PM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Marc would like to be able to say something about the marks, but he can't It's a small brass inset what I seem to see in the mark closer to the hilt in the reverse of the double "B" (fifth picture, DSC00010.JPG)? It may be an optical effect... I'm still looking around for it, but as a first approximation it's indeed Spanish/Spanish Colonial. It's not the first one I see, with some minor variations. Blade seems to be "import", probably German. It's a military sword, Cavalry/Dragoons, second half of the 18th c., and a nice piece to boot, my sincere congratulations

12th February 2008, 12:22 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your input and for praising this piece, Marc . No, there is no brass in the apparently unreadable marks, only some dust in the dot. BTW, how would you tipify this sword, in terms of its guard ... be it in English or Spanish, in a way that i can bring it to Portuguese. It is not cup ( taza ), neither shell ( concha). Jim called it a bilbo hybrid type guard. Bilbo derives from Bilbao; is this how you call it in Spain ?. I am not certain it has an equivalence in portuguese. I already knew this name, but i browse the net and i don't see any examples.The thing is i don't know how to classify it for my files. The seller called it tigela ( bowl ) guard, but i don't think he is correct. Or should i just call it by its class; a cavalry dragoon sword, basicaly of colonial issue? Sorry to be such a bore Fernando

12th February 2008, 03:44 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,476	Fernando, if I were trying to classify this it would be as a dragoon officers shellguard dress sword with bilbo style quillons and of latter 18th century, probably Spanish colonial. The true Bilbo does have a bowl type guard, and it does seem that there may be some association with Bilbao as far as the derivation of the term. While a bit lengthy in words, it is better to be more descriptive when an atypical form is the subject. Marc, its great to hear from you on this, and I agree it really is a nice example. I was hoping you might something similar among the regulation Spanish swords, but for the most part this seems like a cavalry officers sword that reflects the smallswords of the gentry, much like the British M1796 Heavy Cavalry officers dress sword. All the best, Jim