Titanium Keris

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2008, 11:14 PM

Well, we live and we learn, don't we?

I'm sure Sungkowo has learnt something from this, as has the person who placed the order.

Titanium + iron + traditional forge = no result. ever. simply can't be done.

Raden Usman Djogja · 27th January 2008, 12:10 AM

dear ALan, Fearn and Richard,

I am goint to email my friend to read this thread. Then, he must decide what he will do.

Thank you for this valuable info.

warm salam,
Oes

fearn · 27th January 2008, 04:22 AM

Dear Richard and A.G.,

I'm glad you two spoke up!

My other question, for the keris collectors, is about the alternate course of action: forming the keris blade out of solid titanium, then anodizing the surface to simulate a pamor. How would you evaluate it? Assuming it could be done, would the result be a "keris-shaped object," or just an exotic keris, much like that brass-bladed specimen that showed up some time ago?

I'm not convinced that a solid titanium keris could be created at a traditional forge, through carving and/or simple forging (titanium is pretty tough to work with, and I have no idea what the anodizing rig looks like or costs), but I am curious as to whether this is even a viable alternative, or whether the titanium keris is just a bad idea.

F

A. G. Maisey · 27th January 2008, 05:31 AM

I've never worked with titanium, Fearn, but I have a mate who is a jeweller and fine art metal craftsman who has worked with it, and another mate who is a custom knife maker who has worked with it. Both reckon it is a swine of material to work with.

As far as I am concerned, any keris made of titanium just would not qualify as a keris. The whole "magic" of the keris is tied into the mystic smith and the reforging of souls. Once you move away from a traditional forge and the rebirth of iron, then you've lost the plot.

You could undoubtedly create a keris-like work of art from titanium, but it would not be a keris.

lemmythesmith · 27th January 2008, 02:54 PM

I've made jewellry from titanium and it is a difficult metal to work. A mendak or pendok made from it would be nice though... I remember the ring I made from titanium turning a gorgeous purple colour just by heating and allowing to cool in air.

Newsteel · 28th January 2008, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Well, we live and we learn, don't we?

I'm sure Sungkowo has learnt something from this, as has the person who placed the order.

Titanium + iron + traditional forge = no result. ever. simply can't be done.

This remind me of pamor munggul. Most books descibed this occurance due to the presence of titanium or other impurities in the pamor material.

Alam Shah · 28th January 2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsteel

This remind me of pamor munggul. Most books descibed this occurance due to the presence of titanium or other impurities in the pamor material.

I've read likewise, from my understanding, the type that was explained refers to a small lumpy piece of material, possibly or probably embedded into the piece... some discovered it when the blade was worn down after years of ritual cleansing...

Off-topic a little... I've seen some simbang kurung, which looked like having a titanium-like inserts, but I cannot be sure whether it is or was it other form of metal. Is there any inserts of this nature ever found to be made of titanium?

Richard Furrer · 28th January 2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I've read likewise, from my understanding, the type that was explained refers to a small lumpy piece of material, possibly or probably embedded into the piece... some discovered it when the blade was worn down after years of ritual cleansing...

Off-topic a little... I've seen some simbang kurung, which looked like having a titanium-like inserts, but I cannot be sure whether it is or was it other form of metal. Is there any inserts of this nature ever found to be made of titanium?

Hello,
Unless the structure in question has been chemically tested I do not think we can say what it is.
As for naturally occurring titanium...in some form of oxide yes, but it does not really look like "titanium" in that form. The reason titanium is expensive is not due to its rarity, but the costs of purifying it from the oxide form......many white paints are titanium oxide and therefor inexpensive...pure titanium is not inexpensive.
Some iron ores contain titanium oxide and this may or may not remain in the smelted material...I know one smith in New Zealand who is working on removing the TiO which is in the ore he smelts for knives...it is not a good thing in the long run.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 08:11 PM

As Richard has advised, titanium is not rare, but it does not come in nice convenient little lumps. It is really not surprising that titanium was found in the analyses of old Javanese keris that were carried out in Jogja a few years back, however, the conclusions that were drawn from these analyses by people with no knowledge of metallurgy and huge imaginations, were ludicrous.

I suspect that if ever we get an analysis of pamor munggul we will find that it is nickelous material. The little bulb of pamor could have been formed during forging by the nickel melting and running to fill a void in the ferric material.

It is said that pamor munggul is very hard and cannot be easily filed, but I fail to understand how anybody would know this:- pamor munggul adds much value to a keris, who in his right mind is going to try to reduce that value with a file? I suspect we are looking at urban legend here.

Alam Shah · 28th January 2008, 10:32 PM

Thanks guys...

How about of "simbang kurung" material? I know without chemical testing one cannot be sure... but in your experience what could be the material?

[ example ]

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 10:58 PM

Personally, I would not guess at this without at least putting it under magnification. I do not mean pics, I mean in the hand + jeweller's loupe.

Richard Furrer · 29th January 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is said that pamor munggul is very hard and cannot be easily filed, but I fail to understand how anybody would know this:- pamor munggul adds much value to a keris, who in his right mind is going to try to reduce that value with a file? I suspect we are looking at urban legend here.

Hello,
Pure nickel will not go liquid and run at the temps used for forge-welding, but a high carbon material containing nickel may.
What I find interesting, being ignorant of many things about the keris, is that the effect we are discussing is round...if it were a piece in the steel or between layers of steel then it should be elongated like the rest of the material in the blade.
I have had welding flaws which look bulbous, but when forged out they are long and stretched.

Whatever this thing is, it happens with little or no deformation so it is either done close to the end of forging or with little forging out of the material....in my opinion.

If its that hard it may be a slag bubble or something like it...may not be steel or metal at all.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2008, 02:19 AM

When I suggested melting what I had in mind was that there could be a void adjacent to a thicker piece of pamor material and for some reason or other there was sufficient difference in the hardness of the pamor material and the ferric material that allowed the pamor material to fill the void.From memory I think nickel melts at about 1455C and iron at about 1535C. Seems reasonable to me that it would be possible for a thick, soft piece of nickel to work its way into a slightly harder piece of iron that had a little hole in it.This is a pretty rare effect we're talking about, I reckon I've only seen it maybe 4 or 5 times, and I've handled thousands, more likely tens of thousands, of blades. I was not thinking in terms of sloshy liquid running around in the middle of the blade.In any case, whatever the stuff is, it needs an analysis to determine, and all our hypotheticals are really just a waste of time.

Its not that this pamor occurs with no deformation, it is buried in the blade when the blade is new, but it reveals itself as time passes and the blade erodes through cleaning.Since it does not erode as ferric material does, its obviously not that.

28th January 2008, 10:32 PM	#10
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Thanks guys... How about of "simbang kurung" material? I know without chemical testing one cannot be sure... but in your experience what could be the material? [ example ] Last edited by Alam Shah; 29th January 2008 at 04:17 AM. Reason: mod link

26th January 2008, 11:14 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Well, we live and we learn, don't we? I'm sure Sungkowo has learnt something from this, as has the person who placed the order. Titanium + iron + traditional forge = no result. ever. simply can't be done.

27th January 2008, 12:10 AM	#2
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear ALan, Fearn and Richard, I am goint to email my friend to read this thread. Then, he must decide what he will do. Thank you for this valuable info. warm salam, Oes

27th January 2008, 04:22 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Dear Richard and A.G., I'm glad you two spoke up! My other question, for the keris collectors, is about the alternate course of action: forming the keris blade out of solid titanium, then anodizing the surface to simulate a pamor. How would you evaluate it? Assuming it could be done, would the result be a "keris-shaped object," or just an exotic keris, much like that brass-bladed specimen that showed up some time ago? I'm not convinced that a solid titanium keris could be created at a traditional forge, through carving and/or simple forging (titanium is pretty tough to work with, and I have no idea what the anodizing rig looks like or costs), but I am curious as to whether this is even a viable alternative, or whether the titanium keris is just a bad idea. F

27th January 2008, 05:31 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I've never worked with titanium, Fearn, but I have a mate who is a jeweller and fine art metal craftsman who has worked with it, and another mate who is a custom knife maker who has worked with it. Both reckon it is a swine of material to work with. As far as I am concerned, any keris made of titanium just would not qualify as a keris. The whole "magic" of the keris is tied into the mystic smith and the reforging of souls. Once you move away from a traditional forge and the rebirth of iron, then you've lost the plot. You could undoubtedly create a keris-like work of art from titanium, but it would not be a keris.

27th January 2008, 02:54 PM	#5
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	I've made jewellry from titanium and it is a difficult metal to work. A mendak or pendok made from it would be nice though... I remember the ring I made from titanium turning a gorgeous purple colour just by heating and allowing to cool in air.

28th January 2008, 08:11 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	As Richard has advised, titanium is not rare, but it does not come in nice convenient little lumps. It is really not surprising that titanium was found in the analyses of old Javanese keris that were carried out in Jogja a few years back, however, the conclusions that were drawn from these analyses by people with no knowledge of metallurgy and huge imaginations, were ludicrous. I suspect that if ever we get an analysis of pamor munggul we will find that it is nickelous material. The little bulb of pamor could have been formed during forging by the nickel melting and running to fill a void in the ferric material. It is said that pamor munggul is very hard and cannot be easily filed, but I fail to understand how anybody would know this:- pamor munggul adds much value to a keris, who in his right mind is going to try to reduce that value with a file? I suspect we are looking at urban legend here.

28th January 2008, 10:58 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Personally, I would not guess at this without at least putting it under magnification. I do not mean pics, I mean in the hand + jeweller's loupe.

29th January 2008, 02:19 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	When I suggested melting what I had in mind was that there could be a void adjacent to a thicker piece of pamor material and for some reason or other there was sufficient difference in the hardness of the pamor material and the ferric material that allowed the pamor material to fill the void.From memory I think nickel melts at about 1455C and iron at about 1535C. Seems reasonable to me that it would be possible for a thick, soft piece of nickel to work its way into a slightly harder piece of iron that had a little hole in it.This is a pretty rare effect we're talking about, I reckon I've only seen it maybe 4 or 5 times, and I've handled thousands, more likely tens of thousands, of blades. I was not thinking in terms of sloshy liquid running around in the middle of the blade.In any case, whatever the stuff is, it needs an analysis to determine, and all our hypotheticals are really just a waste of time. Its not that this pamor occurs with no deformation, it is buried in the blade when the blade is new, but it reveals itself as time passes and the blade erodes through cleaning.Since it does not erode as ferric material does, its obviously not that.