Questions About a Curious Kukri

spiral · 20th March 2005, 12:06 AM

Thats a nice, what appears to be post 1945 sirupate from eastern Nepal Conegre. {The sword forum article has some good photos of comparison of blade shapes...{ http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/tradkukri.php } But says western Nepal, for sirupate origins. which is is tottaly innacurate as are many other statements in that article.

Sirupate are from eastern Nepal, made by the Limbu tribe mainly.

Nepal was closed to most westerners till the 60s & traditional crafts lasted a long time.

Heres a similar one at Tora kukri forum from early ww2 , hence the shorter bolster. { http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/...p?TID=357&PN=1 }

A search there should provide you with lots of info.

Yours appears somewhat tired, unfortuanatly, {IMHO} as the Ninhonto enthusiasts would say judging from the amount of stamped ingraving actualy left visible, buy always nice to find an authentic used Nepali village kuk. Unless it was stamped in a very faint manner?

There are some great ones turn up. Hope you find some others you like.

Intrestingly similar to the falcata/kopis many kukri reproductions such as those made by Himalayen imports without any distal taper are massivly over heavy compared to balenced original , antique & military models.

regards,
Spiral

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 01:03 PM

Hello Mike,

Thats a nice old Sirupate from Eastern Nepal and definatley not of the Hanshee type.
Probably the reason why the Kopis (first came about around 500BC and was made of iron) is often associated with the kukri, is that the there is a theory that when Alexander the Great defeated the the Indians in Punjab (then Northern India) at the battle of Hydaspes in 326 BC, the Indians took the design from the Kopis that many of the Macedonian/Greek cavalry and Hoplites used in that period.
Also many mercenarie troops for the Greeks used the Kopis as well, such as the Dii tribesman (modern Bulgaria) and the Etruscians (N.Italy, whose alphabet is based on the Greek alphabet, due to the heavy Greek colanisation of that area). Another possible name for the Kopis that you might hear of is the Machaira, which in Greek refers to Knife types where as the the word Kopis (pronounced Gopis) refers to clever type weapons and is a more acurate termonolgy.
Spiral that is a nice Villager from Nepal and very well made with a good weight

I completly agree with your comments about getting correctley made Modern kukri from Nepal, unlike the ones below which are pretty much spot on;

As you say, most of the suppliers have incorrect weight proportions to the Kukri, suffer from cho creep and as you say have very thick spines without the any of the tapering ETC which would give the kukri the correct balance and so on

Cheers Simon

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 01:19 PM

As mentioned, this piece has has considerable after-market polishing, which, in conjunction with the comparitively pristine look of the bolster/ferule suggests this may not be the original hilt, or at least that it may have been dehilted for polishing; the currently established surface seems to go right in to the handle. however, it is not possible for a kukuri to become "tired" in its surface in the same manner as a Japanese sword, as it does not have the distinct skin layer whose removal, along with grain opening from too much etching, constitutes tiredness.
The decoration was not stamped. It was hand chiselled/graven stroke by stroke. You can see the cuts start and end.

Ferguson · 20th March 2005, 01:24 PM

Beautiful pieces Simon. I particularly like the tin chirra.

Steve

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 01:31 PM

Hello Steve,

Thanks

The Tin Chirra is my favoured Martial Blade, very nice to handle and the MKI (Bottom) is one of my favoured users.

Cheers Simon

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 01:34 PM

BTW, an interesting idea of certainty regarding the term machaira seems to have entered the market place of ideas and I'm curious to know how; in my youth I remember reading in the official type histories (for what they're worth) that, as with many ancient weapon terms, it was not known precisely what object machaira referred to, but only that it was a cutting hilt weapon (ie. sword); some said it had no thrusting point, though this seems to be a commonly developed falsehood about swords primarily for cutting (ex nihon-to) double edged leaf swords were considered to be in the running..... Perhaps this was one of the many errors of isolationistic N American Nationalist science; I don't know; certainly most of the work comming out of the steppes was sneered away and ignored as supposedly politically driven "Communist science" in USA until quite recently. I'm also curious as to whether the term was used to refer to tools (knives) in the ancient days, or only to weapons; I've only encountered it (anciently) as a weapon term, but then I've only encountered it when reading about weapons.

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 01:38 PM

Hello Tom,

From what I can gather, it may well be that the word Machaira is another word adopted in Italy etc for the Kopis, possibly due to the Greek conalisation of N.Italy.

Cheers Simon

spiral · 20th March 2005, 02:39 PM

Interesting veiws Tom, but heres some points I would like to raise for your perusal.

As to whether the term tired are appropriate, I understand your reservations but actualy the open grain found within some Japanese swords is normaly just how they were made, Etching of a japanese sword would be an act of pure vandalism . They are polished on fine stones not chemicaly etched.

As with all polishing it can reveal previously hidden blade flaws.

Kukri are tempered along the blade edge by pouring water on the hot blade.
This does actualy make a harder skin where the water is poured.
This can be worn, sharpend, or polished {read sanded!} off to revel the unhardend steel.

Hence my use of the term tired.

Many 1950sapparently "village sirupates" have actuly started out with fairly deep blades & have been used/sharpend untill they have the sirupate shape, this can usualy been noticed by the deeper belly that the scabard has, compared to the worn blade.

These worn out kukri are then often sold to western dealers as authentic antique kukri. {bieng English , I regard antiques as a minimum of 100 years old myself.}

I agree Stamped may not have been the best word, but some where between stamped & chiseled would perhaps be most descriptive, looking at the marks made? Engraved perhaps?

Thanks Simon, I am chuffed with this one. It is realy good to see your range developing in the way they have.

cheers,
Spiral

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 02:54 PM

Hello Spiral,

Intersting points, of course tired in the Japanese sword sense, would apply to laminated kukri.
What you say about users being sold as antiques does not surprise me at all, its not uncommon in the collection trade

Thanks about your comments on the Tora range, comming from one of the top kukri buffs such as yourself, I consider a high compliment indeed

Cheers Simon

20th March 2005, 12:06 AM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thats a nice, what appears to be post 1945 sirupate from eastern Nepal Conegre. {The sword forum article has some good photos of comparison of blade shapes...{ http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/tradkukri.php } But says western Nepal, for sirupate origins. which is is tottaly innacurate as are many other statements in that article. Sirupate are from eastern Nepal, made by the Limbu tribe mainly. Nepal was closed to most westerners till the 60s & traditional crafts lasted a long time. Heres a similar one at Tora kukri forum from early ww2 , hence the shorter bolster. { http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/...p?TID=357&PN=1 } A search there should provide you with lots of info. Yours appears somewhat tired, unfortuanatly, {IMHO} as the Ninhonto enthusiasts would say judging from the amount of stamped ingraving actualy left visible, buy always nice to find an authentic used Nepali village kuk. Unless it was stamped in a very faint manner? There are some great ones turn up. Hope you find some others you like. Intrestingly similar to the falcata/kopis many kukri reproductions such as those made by Himalayen imports without any distal taper are massivly over heavy compared to balenced original , antique & military models. regards, Spiral Last edited by spiral; 20th March 2005 at 10:22 AM.

20th March 2005, 01:03 PM	#2
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Mike, Thats a nice old Sirupate from Eastern Nepal and definatley not of the Hanshee type. Probably the reason why the Kopis (first came about around 500BC and was made of iron) is often associated with the kukri, is that the there is a theory that when Alexander the Great defeated the the Indians in Punjab (then Northern India) at the battle of Hydaspes in 326 BC, the Indians took the design from the Kopis that many of the Macedonian/Greek cavalry and Hoplites used in that period. Also many mercenarie troops for the Greeks used the Kopis as well, such as the Dii tribesman (modern Bulgaria) and the Etruscians (N.Italy, whose alphabet is based on the Greek alphabet, due to the heavy Greek colanisation of that area). Another possible name for the Kopis that you might hear of is the Machaira, which in Greek refers to Knife types where as the the word Kopis (pronounced Gopis) refers to clever type weapons and is a more acurate termonolgy. Spiral that is a nice Villager from Nepal and very well made with a good weight I completly agree with your comments about getting correctley made Modern kukri from Nepal, unlike the ones below which are pretty much spot on; As you say, most of the suppliers have incorrect weight proportions to the Kukri, suffer from cho creep and as you say have very thick spines without the any of the tapering ETC which would give the kukri the correct balance and so on Cheers Simon Last edited by sirupate; 20th March 2005 at 01:34 PM.

20th March 2005, 01:19 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	As mentioned, this piece has has considerable after-market polishing, which, in conjunction with the comparitively pristine look of the bolster/ferule suggests this may not be the original hilt, or at least that it may have been dehilted for polishing; the currently established surface seems to go right in to the handle. however, it is not possible for a kukuri to become "tired" in its surface in the same manner as a Japanese sword, as it does not have the distinct skin layer whose removal, along with grain opening from too much etching, constitutes tiredness. The decoration was not stamped. It was hand chiselled/graven stroke by stroke. You can see the cuts start and end.

20th March 2005, 01:24 PM	#4
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Beautiful pieces Simon. I particularly like the tin chirra. Steve

20th March 2005, 01:31 PM	#5
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Steve, Thanks The Tin Chirra is my favoured Martial Blade, very nice to handle and the MKI (Bottom) is one of my favoured users. Cheers Simon

20th March 2005, 01:34 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, an interesting idea of certainty regarding the term machaira seems to have entered the market place of ideas and I'm curious to know how; in my youth I remember reading in the official type histories (for what they're worth) that, as with many ancient weapon terms, it was not known precisely what object machaira referred to, but only that it was a cutting hilt weapon (ie. sword); some said it had no thrusting point, though this seems to be a commonly developed falsehood about swords primarily for cutting (ex nihon-to) double edged leaf swords were considered to be in the running..... Perhaps this was one of the many errors of isolationistic N American Nationalist science; I don't know; certainly most of the work comming out of the steppes was sneered away and ignored as supposedly politically driven "Communist science" in USA until quite recently. I'm also curious as to whether the term was used to refer to tools (knives) in the ancient days, or only to weapons; I've only encountered it (anciently) as a weapon term, but then I've only encountered it when reading about weapons.

20th March 2005, 01:38 PM	#7
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Tom, From what I can gather, it may well be that the word Machaira is another word adopted in Italy etc for the Kopis, possibly due to the Greek conalisation of N.Italy. Cheers Simon

20th March 2005, 02:39 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting veiws Tom, but heres some points I would like to raise for your perusal. As to whether the term tired are appropriate, I understand your reservations but actualy the open grain found within some Japanese swords is normaly just how they were made, Etching of a japanese sword would be an act of pure vandalism . They are polished on fine stones not chemicaly etched. As with all polishing it can reveal previously hidden blade flaws. Kukri are tempered along the blade edge by pouring water on the hot blade. This does actualy make a harder skin where the water is poured. This can be worn, sharpend, or polished {read sanded!} off to revel the unhardend steel. Hence my use of the term tired. Many 1950sapparently "village sirupates" have actuly started out with fairly deep blades & have been used/sharpend untill they have the sirupate shape, this can usualy been noticed by the deeper belly that the scabard has, compared to the worn blade. These worn out kukri are then often sold to western dealers as authentic antique kukri. {bieng English , I regard antiques as a minimum of 100 years old myself.} I agree Stamped may not have been the best word, but some where between stamped & chiseled would perhaps be most descriptive, looking at the marks made? Engraved perhaps? Thanks Simon, I am chuffed with this one. It is realy good to see your range developing in the way they have. cheers, Spiral

20th March 2005, 02:54 PM	#9
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Spiral, Intersting points, of course tired in the Japanese sword sense, would apply to laminated kukri. What you say about users being sold as antiques does not surprise me at all, its not uncommon in the collection trade Thanks about your comments on the Tora range, comming from one of the top kukri buffs such as yourself, I consider a high compliment indeed Cheers Simon